# S2 E2 - Tom Burgess, President, Snipp

S2 E2 - Tom Burgess, President, Snipp 

[00:00:00] Elgato Wave Neo-24: welcome to the middlemen. I'm Tom Limongello, and I'm here with Todd Sawicki. We, as middlemen, live at the intersection of media and e commerce, and we would like for you to join us in our discussions where we turn that chaotic intersection into your comfort zone  

[00:00:16]  

[00:00:17] Tom: We are here with Tom Burgess, president of SNIP. Your team reached out and I realized that you actually, because you were the head of third screen media way back in 2004, five, six, whatever that was that was actually the beginning of my career in digital media, specifically in mobile. 

[00:00:35] Tom: And when AOL purchased third screen media, I went to your party. And so we never got a chance to meet. Nice to 

[00:00:41] Tom Burgess: Yeah, absolutely, Tom. Thanks for having me. And I'm sorry we didn't get to meet on that. That exciting day, that exciting party. 

[00:00:49] Tom: And where are you today? Because you're not in the 

[00:00:52] Tom Burgess: Yeah, I get this and I tend to not hide my background. I do live on a boat, which is, it's very different, so everybody gets a kick out of it. But we're [00:01:00] completely off the grid, literally live on an anchor on a boat, make our own water and live off a sun and wind. We're down in the toasty warm Caribbean sun. 

[00:01:12] Tom: Very nice. It's starting to warm up here, so I'm not particularly jealous today. But but yes, I it's exciting to have a new background. And I think that we wanted to talk to you specifically about. Really, the middlemen have talked a lot about retail media networks, and it's pretty obvious now that their first party data capabilities are the reason why they are seen as a yeah, better mousetrap or a place where attribution can be made, can be done to show media performance. 

[00:01:41] Tom: And that's really, something that is related to the fact that they have a lot of first party data. They understand the transaction, they understand who the person is. Tell us about snip and your history in what we're calling financial media networks. How long have they been around? Tell us about this whole other [00:02:00] idea that's not retailers that also has identity transactions. 

[00:02:05] Tom: So 

[00:02:05] Tom Burgess: Snipp's a 10, 12 year old company that I was on the board with and Snipp works with CPG brands in their core business helping with a collection of first party data for the CPG brands. running promotions and contests and all type of loyalty programs. So that's snips core business. I joined after spending a decade working with the banks. 

[00:02:29] Tom Burgess: And prior to that, it was working with ad networks in mobile, where we were talking about a third screen a moment ago. I launched a a company to take advantage of that attribution data that you're talking about, that the retail media networks. Have but I targeted the banks because the banks in the U. 

[00:02:46] Tom Burgess: S. Banks in particular. Obviously know where we spend and know the consumer through the lens of a credit or debit card. So we went to that path and then went to I, [00:03:00] I brought Snipp into the mix because the bank said we want grocery offers. We want CPG level offers and Snipp was the perfect partner for a bank to bring. 

[00:03:12] Tom Burgess: Those offers of the line item or the CPG, the consumer package, good offers to the consumers, the banks were already doing offers, but it was spend like we all know, as cardholders, we see the banks give us 2 percent off here at 3 percent off there, but bringing SKU level. Or an offer from Nestle, let's say to a consumer through a bank was something very unique. 

[00:03:36] Tom Burgess: So about 18 months ago, we started doing that and and launched with Bank of America is our first big bank. 

[00:03:41] Todd: What's the reality of the types of information flow between CPG retailers, banks, et cetera. I think there's this, perspective that some people, think everything is being tracked and everything is targetable and other people aren't even aware. 

[00:03:59] Todd: And so what's that [00:04:00] reality? Cause I think that's often where, in, in this retail media, in this ad tech in this called financial media world, I'm not sure people understand like, what is the real state of the plumbing between all these things and what's real and what's maybe. Futuristic or down the 

[00:04:12] Tom Burgess: Yeah. Factual data flow is that the banks know where you spend and how much you spend, but they don't know what you buy. So they don't have, no bank has access to what's in your basket. Meanwhile, of course, the retail, the retailers and the retail media networks know what's in your basket. Going back to the banks know across or retailer agnostic where you spend. 

[00:04:38] Tom Burgess: Where those retail media networks are siloed. They have incredible data. Let's face it. An RMN is very knowledgeable about what their shoppers are spending. They just don't know where else they shop. Okay. Now you look at a bank and a bank knows everywhere they shop, but they don't know what you're buying. 

[00:04:54] Tom Burgess: So I approach the banks. And said, what if we could, with your [00:05:00] knowledge of where people spend, what if we could add in that data of what they're buying? Of course, immediately the retailers are like waaah waaah you know, no, no. Don't let the banks know. They're on. I could tell funny stories about me going in foolishly to some of the biggest grocers and being like, Oh, just going to send the bank data. 

[00:05:20] Tom Burgess: I send the bank all your data. And they were like, here's the door. Get out of here, Burgess. But you know, The reality of it was if we could set up a way, call it a clean room in some instances, or if the redemption capability. So when I say that, how you and I, as the shoppers actually redeem the offer. 

[00:05:41] Tom Burgess: If we Tie it to either a digital coupon and Snipp has that data or a loyalty card, a retailer's loyalty card. And Snipp captures that data and, or even if the consumer, UGC, user generated response where a consumer takes a picture of a [00:06:00] darned receipt. It sounds archaic, right? But it works and people know how to do it. 

[00:06:04] Tom Burgess: So Snipp now plays that middleman role where we're able to reach the consumers through the banks. We're reaching today 65 million people. We're bringing grocery offers and we process the redemption and then reward the consumer. 

[00:06:21] Tom: But I think we missed one thing is why do the banks care at all about grocery rewards? 

[00:06:26] Tom Burgess: a good one because the banks have been doing offers as we all know forever. And they've been doing offers that are funded by retailers for about a decade. By the way, that was driven because of government coming in and saying to the banks, you've got to stop charging all these fees to the retailers, blah, blah, blah. 

[00:06:44] Tom Burgess: Retailers had to cut their fees, which meant their loyalty programs were no longer funded. Funded by the bank and the bank needed retailers to fund them. So that's how these, this whole concept of a financial media network was launched because the banks needed the [00:07:00] retailers to start funding the offers. 

[00:07:03] Tom Burgess: Then we said and the banks by the way, as you're asking Tom, why do they care? They're not so interested in the revenue they make or even truly the data that they capture because they still don't see all the details in the basket. That's hidden from them as we mentioned a moment ago. What they're mostly interested in is a thing called top of wallet. 

[00:07:24] Tom Burgess: Which means if for instance, the three of us were to pull our wallets out, we're going to have three to four credit cards each, right? It's just a typical consumer. The banks are vying for. That first card to be pulled out. I happen to be a Bank of America customer, but I also carry an American Express and I also carry a card from my local bank. 

[00:07:43] Tom Burgess: Right? And I have those types of things that are working on me to maybe drive my interest. Which card am I going to pull out? And besides the fact that I might go to my wife, hey, which one do you want me to use? Because she runs the money in the house. I say, [00:08:00] okay, my bank, this Bank of America card, has got an offer on it. 

[00:08:03] Tom Burgess: And I'm going to use that card because it's going to save me money. So the banks are driving top of wallet. They want their card to be pulled. Sorry if I went on too long there, but that's a good 

[00:08:11] Tom: No, I think that's helpful. No, honestly, I didn't know about how the financial media networks started. And then in terms of, the top of wallet thing is important to understand there's got to be some reason that they're interested. In these sort of higher frequency purchases. 

[00:08:26] Tom: And, I, to be honest we tried this when I was at quotient, we partnered up with fig and it was hard to get a ton of activity around. The partnership that we had now, we had clippable coupons, which is not the same as cashback, like the card linked offer thing, requires you to put in your loyalty card number thing. 

[00:08:47] Tom: There's a lot of friction in that. And so I would love to know that was fig and now fig is part of chase. Tell us about like, how does this whole industry worked itself out and where 

[00:08:57] Tom Burgess: Yeah. So cool question because it's an [00:09:00] ecosystem that's evolving every day, like most, right? Except for the fact that then the early going with the banks, they didn't think of themselves as advertisers and or advertising networks. All right. They think of themselves as banks. And they were nervous about how they would work this. 

[00:09:17] Tom Burgess: Then they started to produce offers. And if you noticed, over time, as a consumer of a bank holding a credit or debit card, the offers are starting to grow more towards the surface. Consumers engage. We see high engagement and high redemption rates from the consumers. It's an odd thing to think, why do I want to see an offer from my bank? 

[00:09:39] Tom Burgess: I'm there to pay my bills or finance management or whatever it might be, but consumers are very trusting of your bank, right? So if a bank says to you, here's an offer here, you trust it. It's, and therefore those offers are are more respected and therefore the redemption rates are very high as the [00:10:00] bank started to see that they started to look at third parties and you have companies like Figg cardlytics. 

[00:10:06] Tom Burgess: Triple. These are all another company named card. These are all infrastructure partners of the banks that run these programs. And every one of them that I just mentioned are very good at what they do. And the big banks and the small banks, even challenger banks, tiny little banks have these programs now. 

[00:10:25] Tom Burgess: So it's been a decade of growth. And I'll add one piece and say the one thing that was missing is that, that, that everyday purchase that high frequency, as you just said, Tom, of offers and that, that grocery spend, those offers were hard to come by because the grocers don't have the margin that say a specialty retailer has. 

[00:10:46] Tom Burgess: So they. Grocers weren't funding these offers and the money's got to come from the CPGs who do have the budget and they do spend like you knew from quotient. That's where the revenue comes from. So we had to figure out, we had [00:11:00] to crack that nut of how to get down to the SKU level and that's what my team at Snipp has done. 

[00:11:05] Tom: Yeah. So I'm going to throw just on the screen here an example that you sent me this is how it's working with Bank of America. And you said you work with PNC bank as well. So this is sort of the traditional in the same way of retailers using their own and operated inventory to show advertising or card offers that in this case are coming from CPG brands. 

[00:11:27] Tom: Why, tell me more about how you got to this place because this is, the cold start here must have been challenging. Are you selling all of these? Yeah. Are you selling all of these? Or, you've been in this industry a long time. Did you just bring a whole basket of relationships over in one shot? 

[00:11:42] Tom: Or how long 

[00:11:43] Tom Burgess: that was the key piece of how long did it take to get here? A decade to get here. There are two different things that were challenging in this. One is that getting into a bank and working with a bank. To become a vendor, to integrate into their user experience and [00:12:00] pass any data around inside of a bank is is a challenge. 

[00:12:03] Tom Burgess: It's a good year to 18 months to become an approved vendor in any one of these big banks. So that's a huge process. Bringing the offers from the CPGs is the next stage. They only want to fund offers if you've got an audience. So we had the challenge of finding, couldn't go to one small bank, right? 

[00:12:26] Tom Burgess: We had to go to a large bank as a partner and then we had to become an approved vendor. So yeah, there's a long road of work to get here. But we did have all the components. I've been working with the banks for a decade. Snipp has been working with CPGs for a decade and we brought the two together. 

[00:12:43] Tom Burgess: So it was but. We didn't know if it was going to work, and you put this kind of thing together and you mentioned that challenge of the consumer experience. Are they used to seeing offers like this from their bank? Number one, how do they redeem the offers? So we've been testing [00:13:00] and trying different types of offers, different types of marketing. 

[00:13:04] Tom Burgess: Different types of redemption capabilities. Fortunately, we're seeing very good response rates. And and now the big pull on us is more offers. We need more CPGs to to come into the audience. 

[00:13:17] Tom: So you, you mentioned earlier, you're sort of retailer agnostic that redemption that's happening. It's all through the receipt scanning or like what, what's actually 

[00:13:26] Tom Burgess: So we have three different ways that a consumer can redeem today. One is taking a picture of receipt. That's the base model. And that we have to have all the time because if an offer is up there and it's a national offer, it could be at the corner bodega that the consumer is going to redeem it. 

[00:13:41] Tom Burgess: You're never going to get data from that kind of a retailer. So we have to have a way for the consumer to get the offer at a retailer that small. So that's why that's there. We also are supporting Digital barcodes so the consumer can scan a barcode at the point of sale and they get instant cash back right there or [00:14:00] cash savings really right there at the point of sale. 

[00:14:02] Tom Burgess: If you do a receipt upload, you get cash back into your account into your banking account after the fact, and we're about to deploy a loyalty card related program where the consumer will be able to load their loyalty cards into the banking app. Then they can just shop wherever they want and they'll get the offers that work at the retailers that they already are loyal to. 

[00:14:24] Tom Burgess: So there's there's one step further. The fourth redemption type will be where it's actually connected directly to their credit or debit card. We've done that. We actually have IP and production capabilities to do that right now. It's something that we that takes a lot of work on the retailer side. 

[00:14:46] Tom Burgess: So we're working on deploying that piece too. So we're testing, we're out there and I'd say that the enthusiasm to move forward is based on the consumer. Every time we market to them and we bring new offers, [00:15:00] we see a big spike in the activity. 

[00:15:03] Todd: One of the interesting things is that you are working across retailer and across bank like it's you're one of the few actual networks. Here in the retail media space, you talk about these silos, and I think it's an interesting perspective on the current state of quote, unquote, retail media, and what's also an interesting thing is we're finding these quote, unquote, non retail media, like financial media networks, adopting the retail media language and no more because it's at least understood 

[00:15:32] Todd: and so from that perspective, it's interesting to hear how you're working across CPG and you're working across banks. And I think that's an interesting aspect here. 

[00:15:43] Todd: And I think it's worth talking about of how you are actually a network in a place where it's very siloed still. And do you see The future. Are we going like that? The rebirth of quote unquote ad networks again, where we all came from back in the 

[00:15:57] Tom Burgess: Todd you nailed it, I'd say. [00:16:00] Back um, and I'll go off of what Tom opened with, when we met, or we crossed paths it was the beginning of mobile advertising. And I was talking to people like Verizon Wireless and T Mobile and those folks and saying, You're going to put ads on your phones. 

[00:16:17] Tom Burgess: And they all laughed at me, right? They all thought that was insane. We all know where that went. A decade ago when we started, a group of us, I was one of the first, but there were other people like Cartlytics and Fig, the team there, started going to the banks and saying, You're a great ad. Network opportunity. 

[00:16:32] Tom Burgess: They all thought that was crazy then. And now it's evolving and it's evolving because of similar reasons, the data, right? There's eyeballs and there's data and and the difference between the different types of. I'll pause and go to your question specifically. I, in the early days of mobile, was told the networks the digital networks that are on the websites, they'll just [00:17:00] do this mobile thing. 

[00:17:01] Tom Burgess: It's different technology. They never did do it, right? I ended up being acquired by AOL my company Third Screen, AOL Time Warner. Because they didn't have the technology to do it, right? So someone has to build out the infrastructure to make these things happen. And as it turns out, the banks are never going to go to CPGs. 

[00:17:19] Tom Burgess: They just won't do it, right? So they need the technology to make it work. So that's what we've built with Snipp's platform. Fortunately, a decade worth of building to support CPGs and report on it and understand it was there and was able to accelerate us. into it. But and I chose the banks for two reasons. 

[00:17:42] Tom Burgess: One, they weren't able to get grocery offers, right? Because of what we talked about a moment ago, the margins were too thin. They needed the CPGs to fund them. And but the banks wanted those. They needed that everyday spend to drive that top of wallet. Full circle here. The other piece was the retail media [00:18:00] networks are siloed and the banks reach any retailer Who cares? 

[00:18:05] Tom Burgess: So if you're a CPG, you're gonna have to participate with the retail media networks It's just part of the relationship with the retailers But if you want to reach a broad audience and purchase in one place, that's why a network Supports this, right? So snips networking the banks together so that a CPG can come to one place and I hate that this sounding like a such a sales pitch and I'm sorry, but it anybody there are other people will have these networks. 

[00:18:33] Tom Burgess: Cardlytics will have the SKU level capability as well, and they have a network of banks, so there will be options for the CPGs. But this is something that is a network only, really, functionality. It's gotta be networked. 

[00:18:48] Todd: By the way, as someone who's built startups myself, I think when you believe in what you sell and what you've built. It's it. It's not a pitch. It's just reality, right? As [00:19:00] long as it's all true, it's easy to sell, right? So I think that's one of the interesting aspects of all this which is don't be shy if it's the truth. 

[00:19:07] Todd: And, I think this there's an interesting question as we look at the future of. Retail media, financial media. Like you look at United's offering, the back of the seat, they call that retail media. That's why I kind of said, everybody's kind of using it no more, even though they're really a airplane media network or travel media network, whatever term you want to use. 

[00:19:23] Todd: And this idea of, it's what's fascinating. There's lots of places where they have identity data and they're realizing they can introduce ads as Eric Seufert likes to say, everything's an ad. Everything's an ad network. Everybody's going to be in advertising. It's a natural. If you have eyeballs, it makes sense to, to do that and connect your partners and whatever with you. 

[00:19:43] Todd: And I think what's unique about digital is it enables you to place ads where in the old traditional analog world, it was hard to shoehorn those things in. Whereas in digital, it's easy because of the real estate to insert these things. And what do you think is the biggest challenge [00:20:00] for these? 

[00:20:01] Todd: Types of networks, again, retail, financial, travel, whatever it is to grow, is it, is it the lack of consolidation? Is it the lack of standards? Like in terms of everybody and everyone's getting pitched one way or another by retail media, you talk about, the vendor experience a little bit. 

[00:20:15] Todd: And I think that might be worth touching on is like what's the current state and where does it, do you think it ends up and, or how does it get better? Maybe isn't even another way of saying it, 

[00:20:23] Tom Burgess: The biggest challenge is does it work? It's the same as any entrepreneurial endeavor. You could have the best idea in the world, and everybody could look at it and say, Wow, why didn't I think of that? Or, that's really neat, look at that. Have to make sure that the dogs will eat the dog food and that they don't get sick, right? 

[00:20:45] Tom Burgess: That's just the strategy. So 

[00:20:47] Tom: I haven't heard 

[00:20:48] Tom Burgess: yeah. Yeah, that's the way that I always have that's an old saying that I've used for years and years because The fact is that if you bring something new to the markets a new shiny cool thing Everybody's [00:21:00] gonna try it But does it actually work? And so what we're seeing in both RMNs and the financial media networks is that the data's starting to come in on does it make a difference? 

[00:21:12] Tom Burgess: Is it better than other places I can spend my media dollars? Because that's the fly wheel, that's the fuel that turns the fly wheel, is the media dollars, right? So if you are a vendor or a brand and you're looking at where do I spend my money and just everybody's getting their doors banged down. And they do and there's a certain aspect of shiny things. 

[00:21:33] Tom Burgess: It's good here because it does open up the eyes of a brand. That's something different. Will this work? But at the end of the day, it's all about, did it bring results? Do I have better data? Did I learn something? Did I acquire more people? Did I drive more sales? Those are the things, that's the challenge. 

[00:21:50] Tom Burgess: Can you make that work? And I'll go one step further and say. What we've learned so far is just early learnings. The good [00:22:00] news is the consumer is super engaged. And like I said, a thing that I didn't anticipate well, I thought it would work because I saw it when we launched ads on mobile networks, but in the banks, it's such a. 

[00:22:12] Tom Burgess: Consumer trusted environment that the engagement's really high, like the conversion rates are off the charts. It's now a matter of, do we have enough data and do we have enough frequency and can we connect all the dots? There's a lot of scrambling. There's a lot of gerbils running around on, on. 

[00:22:31] Tom Burgess: Wireframes in the background right now trying to make it all work because it happened much faster than we thought. It was very quick acceleration. 

[00:22:40] Tom: So if you're thinking about today, that screen that we showed of the Bank of America app, let's say that's full of offers and, the thing is humming or whatever. Does the financial media network model have a external traffic? Component to it because once you fill up your available slots, then, does the [00:23:00] demand bring itself in an affiliate manner elsewhere? 

[00:23:03] Tom: Or is there offsite traffic?  

[00:23:04] Tom Burgess: Yeah, on site off site. So the bank channel and this is this is probably The Biggest challenge for a bank environment is a vendor like snip. It's a very controlled environment. If you're going to bring new users in, you're going to have to go through that banking channels, advertising efforts right there. 

[00:23:28] Tom Burgess: You have to ride along with the bank. What we've done to bring it outside is we've started to get opt ins from the consumer who wants to know when new offers are available and make those offers shareable. That means that, and by the way, crazy as it sounds, 50 percent of the people that come into our grocery environment on Bank of America, Click that button and opt in because they want to be alerted when a new offer is available Who'd ever thought that right? 

[00:23:59] Tom Burgess: I wouldn't have [00:24:00] believed you if you told me that was gonna happen But I'm standing here today to say that's the that's the conversion rate and those people Are now being contacted directly by Snipp on the outside. That's about as far outside as you get. Fortunately with the banks, people are in their banking application two to three times a week on average. 

[00:24:21] Tom Burgess: Now it doesn't mean everybody in the household is in there. Like on my environment, 

[00:24:24] Tom: Yeah, 

[00:24:25] Tom Burgess: it's my wife. 

[00:24:26] Tom: I think you were saying your wife is like mine or whatever. Like they look at the app. I'm not looking 

[00:24:30] Tom Burgess: I'm not looking at the app. I go in there when I need to know, do I have the money to do this thing or that thing? What do I owe? Do I have to pay a bill? That's when I go in, my wife's in there literally every day. 

[00:24:40] Tom Burgess: And it and it, and that is, and, but she's also the grocery buyer. So that works and our partnership and she sees the offers and sees the different and types of SKU level grocery deals that have become available. So we find it a very engaged audience, but it is a closed environment, [00:25:00] big closed environment. 

[00:25:01] Tom Burgess: Bank of America has 65 million cardholders. They have PNC bank is a slightly smaller, but still a top five bank. There is Chase has their own media network now. So this is scaling. 

[00:25:13] Tom: So you've been in this industry a long time. Maybe we can pontificate on some of the other things that we're seeing out there. So dr mark Grether was at Uber which, he created a retail media network there. 

[00:25:24] Tom: He's now at PayPal. How do you see PayPal versus the banks? And, is there a difference in the quality of the data there or are they just doing the 

[00:25:32] Todd: Especially as they bought honey, right? Which puts them in a very different perspective. Yeah. And what they could or could not be, 

[00:25:38] Tom Burgess: Yeah. So PayPal's an amazing data. Repository for purchase history. It's significantly more online or e commerce than it is in store, but that's changing. They now have a credit card that they've issued. There's even unique things, data points that are based on Venmo and the traffic that goes over Venmo peer [00:26:00] to peer and a lot of small vendors being paid via Venmo and so forth. 

[00:26:03] Tom Burgess: So their data is amazing. They don't have SKU data. They will get it in the e commerce environment. And that's why they put with Honey, for instance, that data. Now they do see SKU for e commerce. They don't see it in store. They're really similar to any other big bank. I There are so many other companies that are in that aggregation or in that audience you go back into the affiliate world like Commission Junction or LinkShare or Impact, these guys all trying to get into their worlds. 

[00:26:34] Tom Burgess: You can go all the way back to the history of this. Of of offers. And it's usually starts in the commerce side and moves over into the in store side. That's I think where PayPal is going to be strongest is e commerce. 

[00:26:49] Tom: There's one other question I think I wanted to ask, which, I think you mentioned when we chatted earlier that you're part of standards bureaus Are there frictions and things that you're seeing that require [00:27:00] standards that you're really, thinking through right now? 

[00:27:02] Tom: Or is it just, you're a steward of the industry and you're helping 

[00:27:06] Tom Burgess: Yeah, it's a wild 

[00:27:07] Todd: And I assume from a standard is this through IB? 

[00:27:09] Tom Burgess: , P2P is starting it. They put together a group. It's retail media network people, it's brands, it's retailers, and the picks and shovels folks like I call, like Snipp, like the network and the technology providers. So we're all in a room together and the people, okay. 

[00:27:26] Tom Burgess: Driving this are the brands because it's their money, they're spending money and they're saying, can we please just have some standards? In data comes in really three different types of flavors. There's pre planning and targeting there's mid campaign or mid flight optimization, and then there's post campaign reporting. 

[00:27:45] Tom Burgess: And there's no standards on any of this right now in this world, in this retail media network and or financial media network, there's just simply. siloed operators who have their version of it. So the [00:28:00] CPGs have come to the table. P2P has responded very well, actually. And we've got a lot of standards being written, standards being discussed. 

[00:28:08] Tom Burgess: When you are here at this stage there's a lot of people who have built something and they're going to try to drive their agenda. Do it this way because we've proven it. And and so there's, we're at that stage right now, but there's a good industry understanding and cooperation underway to to land those standards. 

[00:28:26] Tom Burgess: I think you'll also see that turn into the. Evolution that we saw throughout all retail media. I'm sorry, throw digital media and that technology will evolve and it'll make it easier for the buyers, not just to get their reporting their targeting and so forth done, but it'll make it easier for them to buy right now. 

[00:28:46] Tom Burgess: Buying frustration is not being solved. The standards. Frustration is being solved. 

[00:28:52] Tom: Great. Thank you. I want to thank you for joining us And you know for giving us for giving Todd I would say [00:29:00] Finally a story where there's an actual retail media network. It's not just a single 

[00:29:07] Todd: Yes. I bitch about the, we, everybody uses the term retail media network. And as you've mentioned, they're silos, they're not 

[00:29:13] Tom Burgess: That's right. 

[00:29:14] Todd: they're publishers, they're single entities, and I don't, it drives me nuts that people use the term network when it's not 

[00:29:20] Tom Burgess: Yeah. No, you're right on. I think I saw you say that on another one of your podcasts and I was like, wow, that's so true. And I hadn't actually thought about it. So good on you. 

[00:29:29] Todd: Thank you. Yes. You're an actual network and 

[00:29:31] Tom Burgess: Yeah. Thanks, Todd. Absolutely. Tom. It's good talking to you guys. 

[00:29:36]