# S2 E14 - Ben Kartzman - Attain S2 E14 - Ben Kartzman - Attain [00:00:00] [00:00:00] ​ [00:00:21] Tom: Welcome to the Middlemen. This week we are talking with Ben Kartzman of Attain. We did that at possible and it was great because I think Todd, you knew him before I knew him before from long ago in the DCO [00:00:36] Todd: goes way back he's an og, another OG guy in the, the ad tech space and, as part of a, a company sponge cell. They got acquired and then acquired and then ultimately ends up at Attain. And so it's been fascinating to watch his journey and yeah, he would definitely fit into the OG [00:00:50] Tom: He would get a [00:00:51] Todd: ad tech Cabana. [00:00:52] Todd: Oh yeah, he's getting this. He, he would get a, . A smoker jacket. And, uh. [00:00:55] Tom: a couple on there. I dunno. We'll see. [00:00:57] Todd: We will figure it out. But no, Ben's been in the space a very [00:01:00] long time, and as publishers or retailers look like publishers and act like publishers and mimic publishers, I think what we're seeing in the Attain business is the evolution of. [00:01:14] Todd: All retailers who are in retail media , are looking and acting more and more like publishers every day. And the businesses who sell to publishers are now selling to retailers. And you're seeing that transition and you're very much seeing every ad tech company needs a retail media strategy. [00:01:31] Todd: That merger that coming together is so visible, especially a place at a conference like possible. Where we talked to, to Ben, it's just amazing the presence of retail media at a show like Possible and the influence and really how retail media is eating online, publishing and advertising. [00:01:51] Tom: Yeah, we are in what people are calling the outcomes era, and lo and behold, the marketing of Attain. their URL is [00:02:00] attain outcomes. They call themselves a partner for outcomes. Um, so they've known this a long time and, , Ben talks about how Brian has had this vision for a while. They had a huge headstart in being Klover originally, and they've rebranded themselves as Attain, but they've been buying up lots of permission, first party apps that have consumer data. . And it's not just at a single retailer, it's at multiple retailers. It's at, it's, it's learning their preferences. It's all these things. [00:02:27] Todd: There's a lot that you. Gain from partnering as a publisher with these types of companies like Attain and their consumer financially oriented apps. Their apps are , are ones where consumers take a picture of a receipt and get points and it allows interesting offline purchase tracking. [00:02:44] Todd: Which I hadn't really thought about. There's others, there's, you've mentioned iBotta and Fetch and, , once you realize what they do in the category they're in, you're like, oh, I dunno exactly what they do. What I don't think most people realize is there's a big business around originally working with publishers to provide some of the [00:03:00] attribution outcomes, like reporting for brands who are working with publishers to justify their spend. [00:03:04] Todd: And one of the things that's interesting about companies like Attain is it's the, ability to work cross publisher. Now in the world of cross retailer and if you, if you're gonna want these non-endemic, non-retail media endemic meaning non vendor dollars, these brand dollars, well these are the types of vendors and insights providers that publishers used to work with that retailers would need to start working with. [00:03:26] Todd: Because if brands are gonna look cross retailer, they're gonna look at outcomes reporting. Cross retailer and publishers have solved this with solutions like Attain. And I think that's an interesting. Reality too. If you're a retailer, these are some of the things you're gonna have to, start thinking and working with. [00:03:41] Todd: It's not just necessarily your own data, especially if you're not a tier one retailer. You're gonna have to figure out how you work within an ecosystem, just like publishers. I know this has been a theme on our, discussions is retailers are gonna act more and more like publishers or become, they are the next generation of publishers, and this is just another example of that. [00:03:59] Tom: Yeah. And [00:04:00] you'll hear Ben in the discussion I'll push him and say, you know, you guys are are behavioral, not attitudinal company. And he is like, yeah, but we have insights. And I think what he's talking about is there's this gap. If you're a brand you don't maybe don't care exactly which retailer people buy at. [00:04:15] Tom: They want to just drive sales. And some retailers say, Hey, this person doesn't have a dog, because they don't buy dog food from us. But the truth is they buy them, buy it from Amazon, or they buy it from Chewy, or they buy it from somewhere else. These types of companies that are not affiliated with the retailer they're affiliated with, the consumer can potentially fill these gaps or, find ways to know more about the consumer. And I think that even the retailers, the more mature retailers are gonna start looking to do this. And so I think that's also what you'll hear from Ben is, it's not just that we're selling to brands, we're selling to publishers, we're selling to retailers. They're ready to, to help anybody who wants to buy. [00:04:52] Todd: And I think one of the last important things is the idea that. There are [00:05:00] retailers who don't have a lot of online transactions, especially in grocery, and there's other retailers too in, in the electronic space. Microcenter is an example of this. They, have a eCom e-commerce site, but they drive people to in-store pickup and purchase conclusion. [00:05:14] Todd: And a very interesting, unique model in, in that case, how do you work where there could be non online transactions, non loyalty transactions, and how do you build a closed loop? That, receipt scanning is an interesting mechanism for that. And so I think this is another thing, which is, again, if you're in grocery or other categories where there's a lot of POS, meaning point of sale purchases, that's an interesting solution to help provide some of that reporting. [00:05:38] Todd: How to deal with cash transactions, convenience stores, which as we've learned is a huge retail media sector. Is another example where that might be a really elegant solution. The receipt scanning and picture taking to provide some of that additional closed loop reporting. Especially re what's crazy is c stores also don't have really much , in the loyalty program area as well. [00:05:57] Tom: nobody really wants a seven 11 card, a dollar [00:06:00] General car. I mean, like, that's just not, I mean, they, they have them, but it's, it's just very difficult to get people to be loyal to those channels or whatever. It doesn't mean that they're not shopping in those stores over, you know, many, many times. [00:06:10] Tom: I, you know, I, I came from New York and now I moved to Philly. I now have a car. And, you know, I'm actually a believer in the fact that it's not gonna be, that every transaction's gonna be digital. For a little while, I kind of thought, well, it's just a matter of time. [00:06:23] Tom: Every transaction's gonna be digital. But, I have to sort of backtrack and be like, you know what, actually there, , my transactions are not all digital. [00:06:30] Todd: The world we're in is more complex and there's way more solutions I think out there that people realize the, the maturity of the ad tech and the pub tech space offers a lot of solutions that are really appropriate for the rise of retail media and for building out retail media. And I don't think it was is when we sat down with Ben, it wasn't obvious to us, but the minute you sit down and you start hearing the story, you're like, oh, this makes so much sense. [00:06:54] Todd: And how the transaction data that they're able to capture from their consumers in a [00:07:00] permission-based way, first party way. There's really interesting and elegant, models that start to emerge and you can see how it easily fits into this new, emerging retail media centric online publishing world. [00:07:11] Todd: And why Attain looks like it'll have , a good seat at that table. [00:07:14] Tom: It bodes well for local publishing. There's a lot in this episode, so we're gonna get into it and we hope you enjoy. [00:07:21] Todd: [Mic bleed] So where were we? So we should, we can just start talking, um, in terms of, , the future of. open web What, what is that future? [00:07:29] Todd: And so I'd love to hear your Yeah. So I think retailers are doing a great job of beginning to monetize right And so they've got this treasure trove of data which they're using, right? Hence Retail Media What they're needing more of is quality inventory So where does quality inventory exist or where could it I, I think it could [00:07:47] Tom: exist for them in local. [00:07:49] Todd: And so at the same time, while you're seeing local of like become less of a thing, right? And become funding. Like we all know the stories about local news. Who's best [00:08:00] positioned to fill that void? I think it is the retailers who operate in these local markets. [00:08:06] Todd: it does, it does a few things from one [00:08:08] Tom: closer connection to their community, which is not a bad thing in this sort of social media, you know, globalized world that we live in. [00:08:15] Ben Kartzman: Two, [00:08:16] Tom: it's gonna be a bunch of inventory that they can, [00:08:18] Ben Kartzman: um, [00:08:19] Tom: monetize. And then three, they probably have the infrastructure to manage it. [00:08:23] Tom: So I, I love somebody actually going out and saying that that's a good idea because [00:08:27] Ben Kartzman: we [00:08:27] Tom: kept trying to recreate the digital, create a digital circular because the circulars, it was really we meaning retailers. Yeah. So, [00:08:34] Todd: Yeah. [00:08:34] Tom: you know. Okay. So we're here with Ben Kartzman. Uh, he is at Attain. I used to be a quotient and quotient. [00:08:40] Tom: Was building out retail media networks, but it started based as coupons.com. So the relationships that they had at the point of sale and in the freestanding inserts in newspapers, um, was really a local play and a direct mail play and all of that. And we always tried to create a digital circular. And what I think you just said, which I think is super interesting, [00:09:00] is that local around the store is the contextual right partner for retail media in the publishing world. [00:09:07] Tom: I don't think anybody's ever really said that people have been focused as much on local. I think we've had conversations around publishers and publishers and retailers are a peanut butter and chocolate. [00:09:15] Ben Kartzman: we use [00:09:16] Tom: That analogy a lot sort of partnership and, and it, it's kind of interesting that. It. You saw the beginnings of it, I think with Best Buy and C Net's deal, but that hasn't really gone anywhere. [00:09:25] Tom: Mm-hmm. Um, as much as, or at least I thought, I just assumed it would take off when we'd see lots of these, and I think. It's been an interesting question around why have the, the retailers not opened themselves up to realize there's these assets. And then by the way, I think they're incredibly undervalued. [00:09:38] Tom: Like local media's gotta be dirt cheap right now. Yeah, exactly. And so I'm surprised that we haven't seen that. So you're talking, but local hasn't been quite the angle. I've just assumed publishers in general, but you're adding another, like it's even more specific, like I think local [00:09:49] Todd: media [00:09:50] Tom: is even a better opportunity. [00:09:51] Tom: And I mean that, that was sort of the thesis behind X on some level, right? Was like it was going, I mean, ELAM would talk about it was going to replace local news and [00:10:00] why should you trust a newscaster at a local news network versus somebody who's on the ground, you know, like people journalism or whatever he was calling it. [00:10:06] Tom: And so that is a thing, right? That's real. We're we're seeing that. But I think now. The communities are losing some of the professional edge of journalism that I do think that they want, and that can still exist at a local level. And I think it still does exist at a local level. And so to be able to do that in a manner where you can mo, where you can monetize it, but also create connection to community. [00:10:29] Tom: I mean, what do, what do most retailers want? Like they like the strongest retailers, the ones that have that connection with their, with their communities. Yeah. I mean, the strongest retailers, especially like the HEBs of the world. Yes. I mean that's, that's their bread and butter and they're, you know, they're doing things like. [00:10:41] Tom: Partnering with local, , artisan type brands and things like that. The way that I shop, you know, I feel bad because I, you know, I, I, I worked with Albertsons and ah, and I shop at, , a local produce place and my wife finds out what's happening that week on Instagram. [00:10:56] Tom: So it's a totally different paradigm. How do we get back to that? Right. Exactly. [00:11:00] But in this new world, yeah. Right. Yeah. I mean there's still a digital component of course, but it's local and that, that really hasn't been thought through. So I'm happy that we got to talk to you about this. So let's, let's pull it back. [00:11:10] Tom: Sure. Because we've known you for a long time. I've known you since your sponge cell days and as the sort of food chain works, it was sponge cell was eaten by flash, talking was eaten by media, ocean, [00:11:20] Todd: Yeah. [00:11:21] Tom: and you got caught up in that. You were, [00:11:22] Todd: You know, [00:11:23] Tom: you know, Jonah in the whale for 17 years. Yeah. 18. 18, my God. Yeah. [00:11:29] Tom: Pretty good. Pretty good run. Yeah. It's been a long time to be within, you know, one sort of continuous thread of the thing and now you're on attained and, and what's the story of how do you end up at attained and like leave, you end up at like, you would think the mothership of motherships and, you know, media, the ocean and now you're, you know, you, you maybe made it, but now you're, you know, [00:11:44] Ben Kartzman: know, [00:11:44] Tom: attained and what's the story of how you end up there? [00:11:46] Tom: Yeah, so I, I was enjoying my time like, on that journey. I think the reason I was able to stay was 'cause it kind of felt fresh every three years. [00:11:54] Ben Kartzman: It [00:11:54] Tom: felt like there was something new. Mm-hmm. Whether it was at sponge Cell, there was like a, a, a, a pivot into a new [00:12:00] product we were building, or the market started moving, or we talked a lot earlier about Right. [00:12:03] Tom: Social and the role that social played in that business. And so when we then joined forces with Flashtalking, that was also about a three year run of, you know, helping to get that business from, you know, 50 to a hundred million in revenue and, and, uh, joining forces with a, with a great team and a great leadership team. [00:12:18] Tom: And then. Being able to roll that into Meoc Ocean. Um, and then to your point, like being part of the mothership , was a really compelling and interesting opportunity, right? And that's kind of why we, why we jumped on it. [00:12:30] Ben Kartzman: And [00:12:30] Tom: so did that almost again for, for three years. And, and while I was there, um, you know, we started looking at what was in the space. [00:12:37] Tom: And so we actually, they ended up ultimately acquiring Vid. But we had been looking at that and thinking about that and strategizing around that also. [00:12:45] Tom: Well, because you came from a creative background, you know, sponge Cell was figuring out, you know, we, Todd and I were talking about this DCO. How do, I mean, the reason that I, found you guys and thought, oh, these guys are doing something smart. [00:12:56] Tom: Was we, you know, crisp, which was prior to Quotient, was doing [00:13:00] the adhesion banner, which worked really well for viewability 'cause that was the game. But it was also not what everybody wanted and what everybody really wanted was a 300 by two 50, which you guys latched onto and, and figured out, oh, this is omnichannel. [00:13:11] Tom: 'cause it works on the phone, it works on the desktop. [00:13:13] Tom: Right, exactly. Exactly. And so like, move all the way through to where we got to right before I left. And I think the, the thesis around being able to put this independent. Ad serving stack together, especially in the face of what was starting to happen with with Google. [00:13:30] Tom: Um, we just think as a, at the time we thought it was a tremendous opportunity, so I was loving it, I was excited, I was energized, I was jazzed, like everything was, was going great. There was a lot of opportunity in front of us. [00:13:40] Todd: Right. [00:13:41] Tom: Um, and then I met Brian, uh, Brian is the CEO of of Attain and started talking to him and it was very much a casual sort of series of conversations and he basically laid out the business for me. [00:13:53] Tom: And he said, listen, we've got this really interesting, unique, data asset. Most companies [00:14:00] that have a data asset, they've gotta go buy that data, right? And then they pull it together and they do a bunch of work with it, and then they package it and they, and they sell it to the market. Right? We have a data asset that we actually monetize and is profitable. [00:14:13] Tom: So we have a, a portfolio of apps that we own and operate. So we have direct relationship with. The customer. Yep. Um, with the end customer. And so through those apps, we get access to all of these financial transactions and all this, um, all of this purchase data, right? All the way down to a UPC level because Attain Is actually formally known as Klover. Correct. And so I don't think people, yeah, you guys have done a great job rebranding 'cause nobody knows that anymore. But that's, yeah, it's funny 'cause I'm like, oh, once I realized it was, oh, they're Klover. And to your point about this financial, you know, data, you can say, oh, once people I think understand that, that, oh, I see. [00:14:45] Tom: That makes total sense that they have this because they're actually, but what was even more confusing as we were trying to prepare for this was that you bought Merryfield and I'm like, okay. So they're doing what PayPal's doing. They're doing what IRI and Nielsen IQ is doing. [00:15:00] They're doing what? Fetch and iBotta is doing [00:15:01] Tom: I mean, you guys are doing everything right. It's, it, there's a lot. And then we have another app called, called Frisbee. Okay. Which is, um, more on the, we basically gamified the way that consumers. Um, uh, purchase and share their data. So I think to me, it's the first company that I've seen in the market that actually figured out a way to, like, we, we've figured out the right value exchange for consumers and their data. [00:15:25] Tom: So we pay consumers for their data through this gamified point system in our apps every time. A uh, every time one of our users in our apps, we've got 10 million people that that use our apps. Um, every time they do something in the apps, whether it's upload a receipt or connected loyalty account or, um, you know, work on improving their credit or whatever the case is, they earn points. [00:15:48] Tom: And so every time they're . So you're even in the Credit Karma world entertaining points Yeah. Is where it goes. Very good. Yeah. So you're even doing Credit Karma stuff, so that's, wow. Yeah. So when you, when you think about all of [00:16:00] like the personal financial wellbeing tools that live inside of this portfolio of apps. [00:16:06] Tom: That creates this really unique data set. And the beauty of that data set that I found as I was, you know, going through this process with Brian and now obviously having been here for about a year, [00:16:15] Ben Kartzman: uh, [00:16:16] Tom: that it's permissioned. So we have explicit consent from the end customer. Uh, it is also, because of the nature of it is direct with the customer, there's no gap in the data, right? [00:16:28] Tom: There's also no skew in the data. It's not like. Oh, we're going to give you a coupon and because we're giving you a coupon, they're gonna go buy this thing. Then we're gonna have a, a panel of, of customers who are skewed 'cause they're just buying because it was coupon. Yeah, they're stacking across apps and all that stuff. [00:16:42] Tom: Exactly. Yeah. This is truly what consumers do on an everyday basis. These are the things that they buy. These are the transactions that they accrue, and so we put all that together through this side of the business on the data side, [00:16:55] Ben Kartzman: and [00:16:55] Tom: we've created an advertising business off of that. And we monetize that business in three [00:17:00] ways. [00:17:00] Tom: One is we have an insights product. Um, two is we have an audience's product. So you can sort of package all of this stuff that you're learning and say, I want to go target Walmart shoppers who buy Coca-Cola and have a dog and are over 40 and live in the Northwest. I mean, you can get this granular. [00:17:16] Ben Kartzman: as [00:17:16] Tom: And just for the, for the listeners. [00:17:18] Tom: Mm-hmm. Are you getting any retailer, like Walmart's data direct or is it all because of the third party or the, uh, the first party apps that you manage? It's all through the apps. Right. So it's it's through like the, the receipts and Yeah, the other loyalty, uh, features that you have. So we buy no data from Walmart. [00:17:34] Tom: We don't buy from Target, we don't buy from any retailer. So I actually think, and I'll go off on a little, a little tangent. Oh, no, no. [00:17:41] Ben Kartzman: can tangent away, [00:17:41] Todd: away, [00:17:42] Tom: got, we got 20 minutes and then I'll, I'll come back to the measurement, which is the, the real, the, the crux of the business. But I actually think in this world, sort of going back to retail media, yeah. [00:17:51] Tom: Like most retailers that have [00:17:54] Ben Kartzman: this [00:17:55] Tom: level of data that we're talking about, they do sell that data. And there are tons of companies out there that, [00:18:00] that buy that in a world where, , Walmart's, retail media business, what's it like three or $4 billion now? Yeah. Well, I think it's at least four. [00:18:07] Tom: Yeah. [00:18:07] Ben Kartzman: even [00:18:08] Tom: So in a world where they're doing $4 billion through retail media, the value of the data licenses that they're selling diminish. Right, because what used to be probably a big part of their business, it was all margin right now is a smaller part of their business as media gets monetized. Right. More and more and at the same time, what is the unique value proposition of Walmart is selling. [00:18:30] Tom: It is their data, right? So why in the world do they want to give that data or sell that data? Well, and you see that with Scintilla and other other things to try to push third parties out. Correct. And so like Amazon doesn't do that. Right. And they're arguably the base. Amazon never sells data. [00:18:45] Ben Kartzman: Correct. [00:18:46] Tom: They're, it's locked down tight. [00:18:48] Tom: Correct. So I think Walmart follows suit. [00:18:50] Ben Kartzman: Yeah, [00:18:51] Tom: Yeah. I think that's more than fair. Yeah. And I think, I think there's, there's an echelon of players that will get to a certain scale that will lock down their data and [00:19:00] they will not sell it. Right. 'cause it is worth more to them to be able to monetize. Correct. Yep. [00:19:03] Tom: Within their own retail media networks than it is to sell it externally. Right. Certainly the smaller players, regional players, they, they'll still pull it and sell it. 'cause I don't think they'll get to that scale. And so the reason that I think that's a huge advantage for us is because [00:19:16] Todd: W [00:19:17] Tom: it doesn't matter, right? [00:19:18] Tom: Like Walmart can't say to us, Hey, no, you, we don't want you to have our data. Right? Like, that's not 'cause it's coming through a consumer first. It's the consumer's data, not Walmart's data. Correct? Yeah, exactly. And so that's the, that's kind of the beauty of the, of the business. And what I think gives us this unique asset as the tier two and tier three retailers show up as, and start building RMN. [00:19:38] Tom: Are they your natural allies? You know, in terms of, especially as one of the questions that I think we have is how do these retailers start working together and how do we start seeing networks like, it's not like the 20-year-old publishing playbook where publishers had to, to work together through ad networks and we're just kind of waiting for the retail media ad networks to the real ones to appear. [00:19:57] Tom: Right? The cross retailer and I have bone to [00:20:00] pick with R mens calling themselves networks when they're not networks, right? When you're seeing a retailer, you're not a network. Stop calling an rm. Um. And you may an RP. Right. Fair enough. Read something, a publisher would be a better name than RMN, but whatever. [00:20:10] Tom: But I, I think we're gonna see real actual networks have to emerge, just like we saw with publishers having, and so is that a play for Attain, can attain be the connection layer between these retailers as they need to start working and partnering together? Yeah, and I think that lends itself well into our, our third product, which is our core product, which is a measurement product. [00:20:28] Tom: So because of the nature of this data set, what we can do for customers is, and those customers can be advertisers, right? Or they can be publishers, right? Right. And so we can help, let's stick with the publisher case. We can help them understand that when media was run and deployed through their network or their, you know, their, they, they're o and o right? [00:20:47] Tom: Uh, [00:20:47] Ben Kartzman: o Yeah. right? [00:20:48] Ben Kartzman: Uh, [00:20:48] Tom: that it drove incremental sales because we can understand if these customers, were not exposed to their creative before and then bought, or were exposed to their creative and bought. And so we can actually [00:21:00] look at incrementality and feed that back to retailers or on the other side to advertisers. [00:21:05] Tom: So I think that level of data and that type of reach, especially for us to help them see outside of their four walls, right. , I think certainly there's an opportunity to help. Them sort of come together on, how they can basically service a larger pool of advertisers. I think one of the other interesting things that has come up, which is as retailers wanna partner, they're gonna partner with non-competitive retailers. [00:21:27] Tom: Like there's a natural, uh, I think, complimentary group of retailers that can work together, like a grocer can work with and hardware store can work with an electronic store and they're not competitive to each other. Yep. [00:21:37] Ben Kartzman: Yeah. [00:21:38] Tom: And maybe you help identify sort of the natural relationships, like these type of people tend to purchase from this retailer or this other retailer and this third, and so you [00:21:46] Ben Kartzman: got [00:21:47] Tom: That's a better, that's a better, you're helping to, like, how do you help with these part, these people identify the true partners? Well, that's a better idea, I think, than, than people saying that, oh, you can stitch together a geography. Because a lot of times it's like, well, but I want to get in that geography. [00:21:59] Tom: [00:22:00] Yeah. [00:22:00] Tom: So, yeah. Yeah. [00:22:01] Ben Kartzman: And I, I, [00:22:01] Tom: I, I think it's like. [00:22:02] Ben Kartzman: Yeah, [00:22:03] Tom: There's an element of that too, but I would actually take that over to our, our insights product. Mm-hmm. Which is where we can help. So we can help an advertiser say, or, or a publisher say, okay, this customer buys my product. What else do they buy? Yeah. [00:22:18] Ben Kartzman: Yeah. [00:22:18] Tom: Where else? What are, what are, what's some of, tell me psychographically, some of the information about this. [00:22:24] Tom: These customers who often buy my product, they don't have that level of data. We have that level of data because not only do we get all the transaction data, and we talked about the, the, you know, the ability for consumers to, to scan receipts, connect loyalty accounts, so on and so forth. We actually also ask them a bunch of questions when they join, right? [00:22:43] Tom: Right. And the more questions they answer, the more points they earn. So again, that sort of value exchange for data. And we can drop a survey in, uh, and ask questions and get thousands of responses within minutes. And it's so you can be the true preferences engine that can [00:23:00] pick and choose the retailers that make sense and help them understand like, okay, people that buy at my store, where else do they typically buy? [00:23:07] Tom: Right. Right. Who, what is their real profile? Right? Who are the people that buy here? And so let's say I look at this data and it shows that it's mostly women over 40 that have a, a cat but don't have dogs. Uh, drink coke, but yeah, but not Pepsi. Interesting. Cool. What do I want to do as a retailer? Do I wanna lean in and sell more to those? [00:23:27] Ben Kartzman: do I want [00:23:27] Tom: Or do I want to, do I wanna go find males under 40 that have dogs, not cats? You know, do I like, how do I want to, have you thought about extending the attained platform and into the loyalty card business with the retailers? It seems to me like a natural, you know, either a partnership, like you have data that the, that the, that could augment with the loyalty programs. [00:23:46] Tom: And to me it's like I hear this and go, wait, you. Why aren't you in the the, you could be running these loyalty programs for the retailers, or at least it's a natural partnership, extension, whatever, and plugging those because the IT we have yet to see a retail media [00:24:00] business work well without a loyalty program. [00:24:02] Tom: Right. And I think that is one of the underpinnings for the, the retailer especially, is also loyalty programs help connect in-store activity with off within online activity and offsite. And so there's, [00:24:14] Ben Kartzman: you, [00:24:14] Tom: you start to see these natural connection points. And what's funny about this is I think when we imagined. [00:24:18] Tom: Going back to sponge sales 17, 18 years ago, and my 25 year journey in Ad Tech is, I think this is all what we thought we would, the, the online advertising business would be about how we have these profiles and these targeting vectors and this, this information, and now it's maybe 25 years later with the now inclusion of retail media. [00:24:37] Tom: We maybe, we actually start doing all the things we talked about. But what's fascinating is it's in, uh, [00:24:43] Ben Kartzman: because [00:24:43] Tom: in the old third party world of where you getting permission? Were you not getting permission? In this re you get permission, whether it's your apps or from the retailer. Yes. This is all permission based marketing, correct? [00:24:53] Ben Kartzman: Correct. [00:24:54] Tom: And I think that's a huge point because I think in this world that we're finally now entering into [00:25:00] all of the ways of the last 25 years, where it was so heavily reliant on third party, right? 'cause first party or the infrastructure for a first party didn't really exist. Right? So it had to be a third party. [00:25:09] Tom: I actually, that is why. Third party dies. Right? Right. So third party is here and first party is here. Right. We, I think we're crossing that. I totally agree. I think third, you know, it's funny is people, oh, Google's gonna let the third party cookie. I don't think any any space market even care worries about it. [00:25:23] Tom: Cares about it. It's, we've all moved on. Anybody who's been in retail media never care. [00:25:27] Todd: puck, [00:25:27] Tom: We never cared about Its going Is recently. Yeah. 'cause of that. Like that's the under, that was always the, I think that's the missing thing where publishers were never able to get people to log in. Right. Yeah. Retail streaming services do. [00:25:37] Tom: Right. But outside of that. It's retailers Yeah. Are where you get people to log in and I think that's been the missing piece to your point about publishers and retailers like retailers buying publishers is you add that retailer logged in experience on top of media. Yeah. And we solve everything. It all goes away. [00:25:55] Tom: Yeah. You know it all the pain and suffering and it's all first party and oh, [00:25:59] Ben Kartzman: we, [00:25:59] Tom: and [00:26:00] I [00:26:00] Ben Kartzman: I [00:26:00] Tom: brought this up many times. We move server side finally and stop getting around browser based identification and move server side ification. Yeah. Up to the forefront. So, and it's all reliant on permissions, right? Right. [00:26:10] Tom: And I think the fact that we now have moved into that world, to your point, right, it's like, I think it was smart for Google to just walk away because they were just creating more consternation Right. Than they were, than they were helping. Right. And I think it's interesting, as at team, as a business is always been in that permission based, and it's [00:26:26] Ben Kartzman: you, [00:26:26] Tom: sort of like, you know, were, were you guys seeing the puck ahead of time? [00:26:29] Tom: Or now the puck is finally landing in your lab. But this idea of this permission based world, whether it's for retailers or streaming or whatever, you guys are already there and you can do the data matching, you can do the profile matching. 'cause it's all about first party matching. It's not about, you know, having to fudge identity and, and mask it and whatever. [00:26:48] Tom: It's all permission based. You can match away as much as you want. Yeah. Well, so Jonah Gunnar, who's on our, our board, um, tells a story about when he first met Brian first started talking to Brian. Probably about four years ago, and [00:27:00] Brian talked about his goal. He was always building these apps, but his long-term goal was to build a measurement business. [00:27:06] Ben Kartzman: And [00:27:06] Tom: got Jonah kind of interested. Right. And the underpinnings of the measurement business is everything that we're talking about here today. [00:27:12] Ben Kartzman: Right. [00:27:12] Tom: And so it's the, it's the fact that it's like it, it is all permission. It is all this first party data. It is all not reliant on retailers, right? It all, it is all direct with the consumer. [00:27:21] Tom: It allows us to build this measurement business on the other side. Um. And so it's been, it's been like a cool evolution for these guys. So I think, to answer your question, I think Brian always had a vision for this is where it would go. Um, but to have it come to this realization, the market hadn't gotten to that point in. [00:27:38] Tom: Now it has, I think that's been the, the major change, right? We talk a lot about internally and even now, externally, um, about outcomes, right? So the whole industry now is talking about outcomes, right? We have been talking about outcomes for as long as he had this concept of building this, uh, this measurement business. [00:27:55] Tom: And so. The fact that like, I think, yes, the market has kind of [00:28:00] caught up to where we are, uh, puts us in this really unique, I think, position. And also sort of back to the original story where we started this conversation. It was one of the reasons I joined, right? Like I, I, I, this was where the unquestionably, based on everything we've just talked about here, this is where the world was going, like [00:28:16] Ben Kartzman: without [00:28:17] Tom: a doubt. [00:28:17] Tom: And so to join a company that has all of this permission data, 10 million people. Opted in first party. Right. It just checks all the boxes of what? Like a future proof business? I think so. You and Todd have now painted this picture of being possible on the beach and everything is perfect. So I have some questions where it gets us a little deeper into the water. [00:28:35] Tom: Oh, don't, don't. Our brain to, I, I am, I'm gonna, we're living in the fantasy land. Let us know, you know, [00:28:39] Ben Kartzman: you know. [00:28:39] Tom: So you're, you're doing everything in some ways around the retailer maybe. But you're maybe unlocking things that we could never do. When I was a quotient, one of my, the, the biggest failure that I found was trying to sell CTV as a retailer data was too expensive. [00:28:54] Tom: , The use case was a little weird because it was a shopper marketing buyer, right? But I saw you guys had a use case [00:29:00] with our friends at Smart Commerce and Mondelez. [00:29:03] Todd: Yep. [00:29:03] Tom: Um, can't remember if it was Chip Ahoy or something like that, but you guys were doing. Uh, A CTB campaign and measuring it. Is attain a better option for doing these sort of full funnel campaigns, cost reasons, you know, like do you get credit for it at the retail or is it retail media? [00:29:18] Tom: So, yeah, it's a good question and, and kind of where this lives in the funnel is, is very interesting, right? So we talked about certainly it's, it's all outcomes based off [00:29:27] Ben Kartzman: off [00:29:28] Tom: of sales data, right? Which is really the only thing that. You should care about as a marketer, right? Like, are, am I getting people to buy my product at the end, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. [00:29:38] Tom: Did people click on my ad or did they view my ad? Or was it like, did they, was there attention around my ad? Like all of that stuff. In a world of sales outcomes, I, they're all proxy. [00:29:47] Ben Kartzman: Right. [00:29:48] Tom: so when you, when you think about that construct, that certainly lends itself to being more sort of bottom of [00:29:54] Todd: bottom [00:29:54] Tom: the funnel. [00:29:55] Tom: Did the, did the action happen? Did the, did the sell, [00:29:57] Ben Kartzman: did the [00:29:57] Tom: yeah. You're not an attitudinal research company [00:30:00] or behavioral Right. But Yeah, [00:30:01] Ben Kartzman: but [00:30:02] Tom: but we talked about that survey capability. Yeah. So we [00:30:04] Ben Kartzman: So we also [00:30:05] Tom: have this brand lift part of our business, um, that marketers can use. So in the same campaign, they can run a brand lift study. [00:30:15] Tom: And they can tie that to sales outcomes. And so we could start both at the top of the funnel, but then also end up at the bottom of the funnel and see as the campaign is running. And again, the other benefit of of the data and why retailers like working with us and publishers like working with us, is [00:30:33] Todd: Is [00:30:34] Tom: can help them. [00:30:34] Tom: We can run an incrementality report in the middle of a campaign. Everybody else that has run incrementality studies, it's eight weeks after the campaign ends. Then they'll tell you how it performed. We can tell you in the middle of the campaign, we have a, a, a very large live sports publisher that we are [00:30:52] Ben Kartzman: Oh, [00:30:52] Tom: Oh, wow. [00:30:52] Tom: Very closely partnered with that. We ran this for, um, in the last, uh, football season where in the middle [00:31:00] of the season. We were giving them readouts that they could then bring to their [00:31:04] Ben Kartzman: customers [00:31:05] Tom: as to how campaigns were performing. Well, off, off camera, you're gonna, you're gonna have to tell me who this is so I can next, you know, next season for the Eagles, I can watch whatever that network is, because the ads are still pretty terrible. [00:31:15] Tom: So it's all CTVI will tell you. Yes. Yeah. But, but that gets back to what Todd was talking about. CTV was sort of a, a server side first experience. And so it makes sense that it can work with this model. [00:31:29] Ben Kartzman: Yeah. [00:31:29] Tom: But [00:31:29] Tom: the economics haven't really worked yet for retail media. So I think that you, to your point, uh, you like to talk about, you should talk about the economics and pricing quo and why it didn't work, so I'm not sure if, well, I think yeah, retail media started as a very bottom of the barrel cheap ad [00:31:44] Ben Kartzman: business. [00:31:45] Tom: , I think it comes back to our history. You know, when, when you were at sponge selling, I was at Crisp, we were creating mobile ads. Yeah. Mobile. Was so successful in some ways and so unsuccessful in others. Right. It was the winner of the viewability game. Yeah. [00:31:58] Ben Kartzman: Oh [00:31:58] Tom: And because it won [00:32:00] that game, it was impossible to sell other channels. [00:32:02] Tom: We, we had mobile and then we bought digital at home. We did onsite and, and CTV. We had all those capabilities, but we couldn't sell it because Mobile You did the incremental study off of mobile. Yeah. It was all about the clicks. Yeah. And that, yeah, to Todd's point. Was it a dollar? You know, what, what was the, what was the CPM on these campaigns? [00:32:21] Tom: 'cause we were in, you know, gas apps and, you know, all these, all these, you know, publishers that don't have a lot of value to them. Yeah. [00:32:27] Todd: Yeah. [00:32:27] Tom: Um, and then you go look at Hulu and you're like, oh, $40 Hulu ads, and there's a retailer data tax. This is a very expensive proposition. People are like, no, no, no. If it works, you know, you look back it out to a CPA work, you know, it's like, I'm like, okay. [00:32:40] Tom: And then you go to Gatorade and they're like, I don't, uh, can we do mobile video? Right. Can we do, you know, can we do something else, please? Right, right. Yeah. I mean, I, I think a lot of it is, I mean, there, there are stories in the last, you know, five, 10 years of agencies and marketers who were spending a ton on high [00:33:00] quality [00:33:00] Ben Kartzman: inventory. [00:33:01] Tom: And they were getting decent results. And then they shifted models and went to low cost inventory. I don't know if I'll call it low quality, but low cost inventory with a whole bunch of data on top of it. And they drove better performance because of the value of the data where that data was telling them to target versus the quality of inventory. [00:33:23] Tom: So like high price quality inventory has its place at the top of the funnel, but if you're trying to drive. Outcomes and you're doing it without data, you're gonna lose, right? Yeah. I mean, I think where everybody, and I think Roku was out there sticking their neck out, making this work with Kroger, and they were just sort of saying to sprinkle CTV on at the beginning so people remember the ads once they see them later. [00:33:45] Tom: And I thought that was a good idea, but it still wasn't enough of a story to make it work back then. But I think it sounds like it's happening now. Yeah. Yeah. I, I would say so. I mean, I think it's like how many campaigns today are bought without data? Oh, I mean, it's, it's almost none. [00:34:00] Yeah. Right. And so now it's like the conversation has shifted to, and we work a lot with the trade desk and a lot of what we talk about with them, what they tell us that they're really focused on is the quality of data. [00:34:10] Tom: And so who are the data partners, right? Because there's this mesh of proliferation of data, but. Where's the data coming from? What is the source of it? Is it first party? Is it third party? Is it like, and they're doing a lot of work to sort of clean that up inside of their ecosystem because we all know quality of data is a massive contributing factor to ultimate performance of media. [00:34:31] Tom: That sounds good. So tell me, what is it like being at possible now in this new company? What are you trying to attain here? Ooh, I [00:34:38] Ben Kartzman: like what you did there. That's like you did there. [00:34:40] Tom: both [00:34:40] Todd: Oh, what? Impossible. [00:34:41] Ben Kartzman: such a, you're the [00:34:42] Tom: ultimate dad joke. [00:34:43] Ben Kartzman: guy. [00:34:43] Tom: He doesn't like them at all. That's why I, I peppered in at least one or two. [00:34:46] Todd: puns. [00:34:47] Tom: You always go to The Pines. That was good. I like that. , It's exciting. [00:34:50] Tom: Yeah. I mean, for me it's sort of back to my roots. Very entrepreneurial. , It's obviously much more of a startup than Media Ocean was. , I love that. Right. And so there's just. [00:35:00] There's lots of meetings where there's lots of agency folks here that we're meeting with, uh, brands that we're meeting with publishers. [00:35:06] Tom: The big CTB players are all here. We're spending a lot of time with them. So that's kind of the exciting thing about this business is we both sell with and through the publishers [00:35:16] Todd: and [00:35:17] Tom: and the, and the DSPs, but we also sell two. The And what and what are those guys asking for? Like what, what, what are their, what's, what are they trying to unlock at this point? [00:35:25] Tom: What are the stumbling blocks? On the, on the pub side? No, on the brand side. Yeah. Yeah. So it's, it's, it's all the things that we can provide. So on the insights, it's, Hey, what can you tell me about my customer that I don't already know? Right. And we can tell you a lot. Like if you talk to a lot of like, brands that are operating in the CTV space, like a, um, a market I was talking to a few months ago was telling me like. [00:35:48] Tom: I know what you watch. I know where you live and I think I know how many people live in your house, but I don't know what you buy. I don't know what you serve for [00:36:00] dinner. I don't know. [00:36:01] Ben Kartzman: Like [00:36:01] Tom: Uh, there's just, there's what brands you have an affinity towards. I don't know any of that right about you. So I'm missing this whole sort of swath of information that would make it easier for me as a marketer to get you to buy my. [00:36:14] Tom: Uh, yeah, [00:36:15] Ben Kartzman: bundles. [00:36:16] Tom: I think Todd, where you were going with like, oh, they could be helping the loyalty programs. The retailers kind of feel like they know what they know and they're not really looking for more help. The brands go to companies like Thatch or whatever and try to create programs where they opt people in to get first party data. [00:36:31] Tom: 'cause they just don't have enough. Yeah. And it sounds like on the brand side there's probably a lot of need for first party data, but if it's just one single app that's different from like a financial network. Correct. So that's, that's interesting to me. And that's, so that's our, that's the insights product. [00:36:46] Tom: And so that works at that level for the brand. When you go to the agency and you talk to the agency, they're like, oh, we are pitching this new piece of business. What can you help us understand about this company that we're [00:37:00] pitching and the products that they sell, that we can unlock some insights that will inform how we would do some unique, uh, media planning or media strategy for them. [00:37:08] Tom: And so the agencies as experts in. Planning, strategy and buying. They're gonna take this data that we have and they're gonna look at it in ways that we never even thought of. And so they push us pretty aggressively to help us think through, what are the different types of reports? Well, like, we have all this data. [00:37:22] Tom: What if you extracted, you know, it in a different way than you could thought about? Like, help us look at switching and, and how can we think about that and who are the different types of people that switch? And so. The, the data unlocks that they create, , are really unique and interesting, and, and they push, they push our teams. [00:37:37] Tom: And so having those kinds of conversations here at, at possible, , have just been really interesting. I, I would say. Great. Well, , are you going to, can, or you know, what's, what's next for you? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Someone said it, uh, at last night at the, uh, the Pinterest dinner. Uh, possible is the appetizer to, can I [00:37:56] Todd: as the, [00:37:56] Tom: Totally, I call, I'm calling. [00:37:57] Tom: It can light all week. [00:37:58] Ben Kartzman: like it [00:37:59] Tom: You're all gonna [00:38:00] see everyone again at a beach, you know, [00:38:01] Todd: in [00:38:02] Ben Kartzman: similar [00:38:03] Tom: hot, humid environment. So. I like this 'cause this is closer, but I don't like this 'cause the elevators are broken. Here's some feedback for the FTO Blow. Okay. Very good. Well, thank you Ben for taking some time and, uh, opening up your suite to us. [00:38:17] Tom: Um, we really appreciate it. It's, uh, it's great to catch up with you. Great to see both of you and as well. Lovely to, uh, to talk about this. Thank you. [00:38:25] [00:38:25] [00:38:25] [00:38:25] Tom: You are listening to the Middlemen podcast with me, Tom Limongello