# S2 E3 - Neon

S2 E3 - Neon 

[00:00:00] welcome to the middlemen. I'm Tom Limongello, and I'm here with Todd Sawicki. We, as middlemen, live at the intersection of media and e commerce, and we would like for you to join us in our discussions where we turn that chaotic intersection into your comfort zone  

[00:00:19] Todd: So hello everyone and welcome to the latest episode of the middleman podcast. And today we're actually doing something a little different. We're finally talking to the buy side. We're talking to Ram, Dr. Ram as I guess he's known from horizon media. And for those who, anyone who's in, in ad sales knew who was right as media, the largest independent. 

[00:00:41] Todd: Media buying agency in the United States very technologically forward agency. And I think it's fascinating to really get their perspective on retail media and what is happening from their side, how they're stepping into it. One of the things that, that is to me, it really interesting is how horizons ended up building [00:01:00] their own buy side platform to help manage retail media buys. 

[00:01:05] Todd: And. It really, I think, shows their commitment to the space and shows that agencies are really thinking about this and one of the challenges for agencies, that he'll talk about is how do you manage buys? And the traditional tooling just wasn't doing that. And so it's super interesting to see hype versus reality. 

[00:01:23] Todd: And an agency is finally showing up and what does that mean? And you know as he'll explain we hope when we talk is this idea of our agencies doing multi retailer buys? Is that part of it? Because if it is and it's happening I really think it means the That retailers could be the future of online media  

[00:01:43] Todd: and I think it really, interestingly enough, opens up the doors. And I know a lot of retailers are beginning to think about this non endemic buying. That to me is hugely interesting and a huge part of what I think all retailers want is the non endemic buyers, the non vendors. And if agencies start knocking on that [00:02:00] door, 

[00:02:00] Todd: I think it really opens up for the potential of what we've all been thinking about in terms of the hype of retail media and what it could be. 

[00:02:08] Todd: So I'm super excited in terms of what this can be. And in terms of what Ram can tell us about how Horizons thinking about it and what they're doing to make retail media reality. 

[00:02:19] Tom: For me coming from the retail side of this we were always wondering who would build the tools. Would it be the trade desk? Would it be companies like quotient? Would it be someone who has the ability to aggregate smaller retailers? And I never really thought specifically that an agency would step up and build this type of tool. 

[00:02:40] Tom: Yeah, I was. Interested as you were, but I was not really waiting for it. I just, I was blindsided when I heard about this. Do 

[00:02:47] Todd: It's we happened to meet Ram at CES at the CBS retail media breakfast. And really, it was fascinating to hear his perspective and talk about the realities of [00:03:00] The space and, one of the interesting aspects in terms of, you're in my position in the space in terms of working with retailers and helping build out these programs is, ramps perspective on, finding people who are in the middle as well. 

[00:03:13] Todd: And so it was, he really has an interesting perspective on the landscape again. We not many people have talked to the buy side. And so this is really an interesting opportunity to hear right from the horse's mouth About what they're doing and how they're thinking about it and how they're approaching retail media 

[00:03:29] Tom: I think this is an open call from the Middlemen for people on the buy side to start to talk to us and we will be 

[00:03:36] Tom: ShopTalk in late March. So ShopTalk obviously is a huge show, but they have a new track called the new market, which is all focused on retail media. So a great fit for us and our conversation. 

[00:03:50] Tom: So we're going to have some live interviews there. And on the lead up to the show, we're going to start talking to people who are going to be there. So we're really excited. 

[00:03:57] Todd: shop talks probably the largest e [00:04:00] commerce online retail And one of the most important ones in the united states convention shows whatever you want to term you want to use And so yes, we're super excited to be there and as folks who are going to be there want to reach out  

[00:04:11] Todd: let us know. 

[00:04:11] Tom: Yeah. And, uh, Some more updates from us. We have a newsletter now. When Todd and I started this, we started with episodes where we would rant with each other. And then along the way, we started to have lots more guests on and we didn't really have as much time to rant. And so now you can subscribe on LinkedIn. 

[00:04:28] Tom: And we have two issues that I want to do a shout out to Xavier Facon for guest writing with me on the first issue that was about retail media and CTV. And potentially maybe there was too much hype there as well as a second issue about how trade marketing and retail media are experiencing some growing pains, but there's some potential opportunities there that if they were merged, I think The market might be better positioned for the things that we're all waiting for like in store media. 

[00:04:58] Tom: Lots of fun thoughts [00:05:00] there. And on the second one i'd like to say thank you to james tensor to mark walken and to peter bond all of whom, had quotes in That newsletter. So again, thanks guys for being part of creating content on the middleman 

[00:05:16] Todd: Thank you as well  

[00:05:17]  

[00:05:17] Tom: we are here with Dr. Ram Singh. Do you like to be called Dr. Ram or just Ram? What's, 

[00:05:24] Ram: Dr. Ram is fine, Dr. Ram 

[00:05:25] Tom: We're here with him because we met up actually for the first time at CES in Las Vegas. We were at the CVS Breakfast that was hosted by the CPG guys , I have to admit that I stopped listening a little bit because I had such an interesting conversation with you. 

[00:05:41] Tom: And I wanted and Todd did as well to get you on the middleman and understand where you came from and how your specific product, which you are going to tell us about and where it lives, how that is related to retail media. So why don't you give us a little background on yourself? 

[00:05:59] Ram: Sure. [00:06:00] And first off, thank you for having me. I enjoyed that conversation just as well, and I think we might have missed the exact same lines that you were referring to, but thank you for this opportunity. I come from a background of heavy advanced analytics coupled. Everything marketing. That has been my journey long ago in my career. 

[00:06:20] Ram: I started working when I was on the brand side as a CMO. I have always come from that deep analytical background trying to run marketing. So I had the opportunity almost 20 years ago to work on some of the core bid engines that run some of the ad tech platforms today. And that was literally my foray into building advanced models for bringing optimization forward for anything that you're putting money on. 

[00:06:46] Ram: That's been my journey.  

[00:06:48] Tom: And where are you now? What's cause it's a complicated thing. You're within a large agency and then a smaller one and you have a new product. So let's get all those names out of the way. 

[00:06:57] Ram: That's perfect. So I was on the brand side [00:07:00] and about 10 years ago. Got an opportunity to build out the performance practice for Publicis Performix. That's their that was their performance entity. I built the analytics, marketing, science and analytics practice for them. 

[00:07:13] Ram: And now I work for Horizon Media, which is one of the large independent agencies. I'm the chief data officer for Night Market, which is their commerce offering, their Horizon's commerce offering. 

[00:07:25] Tom: So you have with all of your experience found this part of the market where buyers . In the retail media world, have had a hard time building campaigns. I want you to tell us a little bit about that. 

[00:07:39] Ram: So I, I think retail media has been very complex. In fact, one of the reasons I have been drawn to this space is because the level of fragmentation and the level of complexity is extraordinarily high. So when you talk about managing campaigns, building campaigns, you have to not only worry about an array of retailers [00:08:00] and hold that lot of tactics, you also have to worry about the maturity of the data that you're working with, that comes from each of the retail partners. 

[00:08:08] Ram: You also have to manage the complexity of the fragmentation of the buy from the advertiser side Last but not the least you have to figure out how to be able to compare retailer across tactic things so that you're making the right decisions with every dollar that you're investing So if you put it all together it presents a very ripe case for using advanced models. 

[00:08:32] Ram: And we are fortunate that in the world of AI, ML and analytics, we've evolved to the point where we can run heavy compute models. So that's literally what my journey has been in this space. Not only understanding the business side of retail, but also working with An array of granularity of data and trying to build credible neutral models that make decisioning easier for the person spending the money as well as the person trying to take your message to [00:09:00] the right person. 

[00:09:01] Todd: One of the questions people are asking and I'm curious from your seat at Horizon and Night Market, there's been a lot of hype and interest in retail media. And, it, do you, from a, from an agency, a media buying standpoint, what's your perspective on the trend? Is it growing as fast as people say it, is, are you seeing as much interest in it from an agency standpoint? 

[00:09:24] Todd: And the reason I bring that up is. I haven't heard as much about agencies buying retail media. It's been much more, supplier focused and the buys and less on the media agencies. I'd, so I'd love your perspective on how the hype versus reality from the seat of an agency when it comes to retail media. 

[00:09:45] Ram: let me. Great question. Let me answer it in the reverse order in which you ask it. The reason you may have what you're observing in terms of how much you heard about who's buying retail. That's probably because across the agency [00:10:00] spectrum. Retail media is handled by specialist divisions, whether it's for the big holdco's or whether it's for horizon or anybody. 

[00:10:08] Ram: And the reason is that speciality is almost necessary given the fragmentation and the breadth that I was talking about. So to your point, that's probably the reason why it doesn't get brought up a whole lot because until unless you are You actually have dollars moving from other sources like traditional like standard digital into retail You'll probably not hear that and when you do it's being bought by specialized providers now To extend back into the main question that you were asking there is a lot of traction there In fact commerce has become pretty pervasive So you're not no longer seeing that segmented that silo off this is digital. 

[00:10:51] Ram: This is commerce. This is retail. The touch points are getting blended because the every experience is leading to a shopping and shopping is leading to your [00:11:00] awareness that you're building for the brand itself. And so to answer the first part of your question, we're seeing a lot of interest. Where clients partners are asking us and saying, how do I shift dollars from traditional from digital into retail into commerce? 

[00:11:16] Ram: So that does confirm that we're seeing a lot of what eMarketer and other research Organizations are reporting in terms of inflow into retail. It still is done by specialists. So that's your question 

[00:11:28] Todd: Yeah, I think that does. And it's not the main. thing yet, but there's definitely interest from agencies and they're beginning to move in that direction because I think one of the things that's fascinating to me about ad tech and the rise of digital media is and you don't see this in other media channels is the rise of managed services. 

[00:11:48] Todd: And you have providers like the Criteos of the world providing managed services when traditionally the media buying function has lived. primarily within agencies. And I think for retail media to [00:12:00] really reach its full potential, agencies need to have a bigger seat at the table. Like we have, it's funny. 

[00:12:06] Todd: We've talked to some suppliers who are beginning to buy retail media and they're frustrated with being asked to do this. We're not media buyers. What the heck? What are we supposed to do with this? And I don't know. They don't know. Do they turn to their agencies? Do they take them advantage of the man managed services? 

[00:12:22] Todd: The other thing also, just in general with ad tech, the whole idea of managed services is, I've always found fascinating. And when I built and ran A DSP we did not offer managed services. We had a very strict rule that we would not alter or touch a campaign setting. And in part that was because. Our biggest customer base was agencies, but also I didn't want to compete with agencies. 

[00:12:45] Todd: I really felt like our job should be to support them and let them build their service business and let them be the value added effectively resellers of our platforms. And I think there's this interesting dynamic of for retail media really to take off. [00:13:00] We have to see agencies at the table and buying significant chunks of this inventory. 

[00:13:05] Todd: Otherwise, I think it's going to be Stillborn to an extent. And I think that's an interesting part of the conversation, which is, are we really, if it's great to hear agencies are starting to get involved, because I think that's been one of the reasons that it hasn't potentially reached full maturity yet is the best media buyers in the world aren't buying as much just yet. 

[00:13:22] Ram: Your observation is very accurate. I think there's a couple of reasons that we see all the time. One is the maturity that you're talking about, and maturity does tie back to the level of data as well, right? So there are big retailers and then there are small retailers. The long tail is really long on retail, right? 

[00:13:41] Ram: So you have, so talking about data first, right? The long tail. There's also the retailer part of it that they're building their capabilities, their own data infrastructure, then associating the buys with it. All the systems that are needed to support those buys to offer those buys in a [00:14:00] real time through for program. 

[00:14:01] Ram: My point here is they're building out their capability. So similarly, platforms are building out their capability. The buying functions are building out. Their capability. So to your point earlier, right? It is not uncommon. That is why you're seeing a lot of managed services, because from a client's perspective, you hit the nail on the head. 

[00:14:19] Ram: I have clients telling me all the time Ram, if you have, if you, if I had a nickel for every time I have to manually do the task, like that is a massive undertaking on behalf of the advertiser. So it's not uncommon that you're seeing managed services pop up in many places. It is also the reason why we went to work and started using a Series of modular analytical solutions to to try to build tools like Neon. 

[00:14:47] Ram: You are seeing also people who are maturing or helping mature this ecosystem are putting out self-serve systems in place, self-serve technologies in place. Neon allows for end-to-end optimization. [00:15:00] It's one of the core reasons we started building out. to make the job a little bit easier because even with managed services, you can imagine from an advertiser perspective, they have to go through 12 people for managed services. 

[00:15:11] Ram: That's still an order of complexity. That's very 

[00:15:14] Todd: I, yeah, I can't imagine how agencies would deal with that and you're in talking with you and it's a good, probably a good time to talk about neon, right? Is it's. When we sat down and we're talking about, Oh, you're building a tool to help agencies manage effectively large campaigns, which means multi retailer which means better decisioning and campaigns. 

[00:15:33] Todd: And I was like, Oh my gosh, this is really the first time I'm hearing about a multi retailer retail media campaign. And I'm like, holy crap, you're right. You need tooling to do that. The idea of building complex campaigns off. Manual processes and spreadsheets like 2008 called and wants a dad buying back. 

[00:15:49] Todd: And when talking to you, it really unlocked this idea of, Oh, I can see how the lack of maturity in the space, the lack of solutions like what you're trying to [00:16:00] build with neon are one of the reasons. Retail media hasn't achieved full velocity yet because we mean that just like we had to build programmatic tools and DSPs 10 years ago, what are the tools for retail media and how do we build those? 

[00:16:12] Todd: And I think, it's probably a good time for you to talk about NEON and walk through what it is because I think it's, it really is the first tool that we, Tom and I have seen that really starts to move in this direction of being a sophisticated purpose built solution. For retail media buying 

[00:16:28] Ram: I appreciate your kind word. I think you hit the nail on the head. If you think about this retail ecosystem and broadly put in different buckets. You've got the advertiser needs. They're trying to like, like you observed earlier, we discussed money's flowing from traditional channels to retail and commerce channels. 

[00:16:49] Ram: They're trying to manage the buy. There's the supplier side, including big and small retailers who are trying to use the incredible [00:17:00] value that their data carries in terms of, the consumer is in that moment. What better data and action can we take? So they're trying to unlock opportunity from their side. 

[00:17:10] Ram: And then there is the ecosystem, the buying ecosystem in the middle, who's trying to maximize the opportunity on both sides. It's not about trying to cut the same pie in 12 different pieces, but it's generally trying to expand the pie. So if you keep those three needs in mind. That is what neon started to build out when we say we're building out an end to end optimization platform. 

[00:17:33] Ram: Those are the three broad areas we are servicing on the advertiser side. You hit the nail on the head. There's today. No basis. of comparing retailer tactic level performance across different retailers because cross retail solutions don't exist. Usually you have to go with the word of retailer reported ROAS or other metrics that are being self reported. 

[00:17:56] Ram: Great directional indication but it doesn't, it's not [00:18:00] apples and apples comparison. So as an advertiser you don't have NEON has a whole series of models that's helping the advertisers understand incrementality of that, each of that investment so that the right investment can be directed. So that's one 

[00:18:12] Tom: Yeah. Yeah. I think what's interesting about what you're saying here is that I think the retailers in their managed service capabilities and whether they're using best of breed vendors to help them with each of those capabilities onsite, offsite, they all have the notion of incrementality, iROAS and things like that. 

[00:18:30] Tom: But I think there's a little bit of a challenge in terms of really changing or being agile enough to change that either during a flight or against KPIs and things. So that's actually, I think, probably why we were most interested is it seems to be that this is taking off the training wheel. 

[00:18:47] Tom: So if you could, I would love to see the platform and see how you use it. 

[00:18:51] Ram: Sure. Sure. I can go show you a quick demo of that.  

[00:18:55] Todd: And again, I think it's to our viewers One of the key things is when ram showed it to [00:19:00] us I'm, not kidding that this is the first time we're seeing a buy side platform where you see Kmart versus Walmart versus, Amazon, Target, et cetera. In, in terms of the retail media platforms. 

[00:19:14] Todd: And so it was really interesting to, to see that for the first time, because I think everything we've seen today has been supply side and it's fascinating to finally, when the light bulb goes off and you're like, holy crap, there's a buy side platform. Finally Oh, duh. Like it's obvious that there should be. 

[00:19:30] Ram: it's helpful on both sides to your point because it unlocks additional value on the supplier side and it helped better decisions on budgeting placements on the buy side. So 

[00:19:40] Todd: and all the DSP integrations have all been about how retailers do audience extension, not about how do I enable buying. And I think sophisticated sell side people know that we have to get the agencies on board, in terms of, it's just, you just don't see that. And, you being at the, that CVS retail [00:20:00] media breakfast in, in, in Vegas was like, holy crap. 

[00:20:03] Todd: You're like the first agency person I've seen in one of these. Oh my gosh, the world is finally. Changing. So anyway, it's I'm not, I'm sincerely interested in what neon is and what it can represent in terms of helping unlock, I think the next phase of growth in this category, 

[00:20:18] Ram: Sure. I appreciate your kind words, and I am more than happy to quickly give you a run  

[00:20:25] Ram: through of that  

[00:20:25] Tom: that was really interesting. He was, he's been waiting since Kmart. You mentioned 

[00:20:29] Todd: I know I feel like a slip of the tongue. I'm aging myself for sure. Yes, I'm over the age of 50. Unfortunately  

[00:20:38] Ram: I was gonna say is don't say that, Todd, because then you date both of us. 

[00:20:42] Todd: I know. I know. Anyway, but yeah, so we'll get back to reality as you walk through the product. 

[00:20:48] Ram: Okay, let me start here. I'll go through this quickly, but I wanted to hit on the key points that you were making earlier. Obviously, within neon, you have the ability to see things at the retailer level platform level campaign level. 

[00:20:59] Ram: [00:21:00] But this is let me call your attention very quickly to what you're seeing on the screen. If you did not have a neutral basis off evaluating something, all you have at your disposal today is ROAS so essentially be. This is what you'll be looking at. You'll be looking at a platform or a retailer telling you what their individual reported ROAS is. 

[00:21:20] Ram: And this is the, this becomes the basis of your decision. However, until and unless you have a series of models like we use to give you the same diametrically the same dimensions of comparison, you will really not know what is the incremental ROI. What I'm trying to point out, see this very quickly. 

[00:21:41] Tom: So the listeners who are not, especially Apple listeners basically Ram is showing how you can toggle between ROAS and ROI. Usually I see my ROAS, but you have, I ROI here. 

[00:21:56] Ram: correct and as you can see when you look at the iroi the picture can [00:22:00] change a lot the picture can This is giving you a real picture of how you should invest based on incrementality Then the second point i'll make is there is value in the time series movement of iroi too. So when you are A retailer who's building out your practice and you're expanding out your practice. 

[00:22:19] Ram: It also allows us to understand how you are increasing your IROI so that it helps people help us carry the message forward saying, yes, this is an expanding channel. This is contributing to your output. So that's what we that's the lens that we typically look at from very quickly. I'll start. 

[00:22:36] Ram: I'll show you how this works is. 

[00:22:39] Ram: When you come into neon and you start to go into the plan, you choose what brand you want to work with, what product you wanted you work with. You choose what retail. This is the cross retailer part I was talking about. 

[00:22:48] Ram: You choose what retailers you want to work with to optimize this. You choose what 

[00:22:53] Tom: It'd be Amazon, Instacart, Kroger, 

[00:22:55] Ram: Exactly. And every retailer that you're working with will show up here. You [00:23:00] choose the dimension, whether you want to increase incrementality, revenue or a combination of new to brand, et cetera. And what you land up doing then is you are asking neon to run a whole series of models and give you an estimation of what performance could look like at different budget levels and what you currently are at. 

[00:23:19] Ram: So  

[00:23:19] Tom: When When you see this graph that has incremental revenue, I ROI, how do you, how would you read this off to a client?  

[00:23:27] Ram: So the way you would look at this is as your investment changes, your incremental ROI will go down. So you have the basis of selecting what is the acceptable IROI. And when you go to that point, it also tells you on the blue line what your current revenue is. And the green line basically tells you by using cross retailer optimizations. 

[00:23:50] Ram: And micro optimizations, how much revenue can you increase? So in this case at that IROI level that you selected the acceptable ROAS level [00:24:00] For the same spend, you could be getting almost a million dollars of incremental profit. That is what, that is the way you see that. And then within the system, we obviously see all the tactics that you are seeing in here. 

[00:24:11] Ram: Every, at the tactic level, from the retailer level, the system, as I just mentioned to you, you see this IROI value. The system is able to calculate a comparable metric across every retailer, across every tactic. It essentially starts to give you an idea of how do you run optimizations across retailers? 

[00:24:30] Ram: So for example, this is what I was talking about is it expands the ecosystem? For example, you have one retailer who is doing great on one set of keywords, but that retailer That keyword is not activated on another retailer. So you have an opportunity to grow that other retail channel You have the opportunity to change bids, etc. 

[00:24:48] Ram: Let me pause for a second But my point here is the system is loaded with Not just the ability to compare performance, but it also gives you tactical recommendations of what you should [00:25:00] be doing when you're moving money between these different 

[00:25:03] Tom: Yeah, optimize was not, it was not really done, 

[00:25:07] Ram: tactics. 

[00:25:08] Tom: At least in the first version of retail media networks that we were working on, it was too far afield to optimize 

[00:25:14] Todd: And you weren't running multi retailer campaigns. Like I think 

[00:25:18] Tom: we weren't even, but even optimization within the single retailer, I think maybe the second version of the retail media networks are now maybe optimizing within the retailer. But they're definitely not optimizing across because they don't have a basis to understand it. They don't get it. They don't get a single report. But what you're showing here isn't even a single report. It is an in flight view. 

[00:25:39] Ram: we are pulling a lot of information. Here's the beauty of using composable analytics, and I'm a big fan of composable analytics. When you build composable modules in analytics for a purpose, like in this case, incrementality with each retailer tactic. You have the ability to do many more things with that. 

[00:25:55] Ram: So you're seeing all these micro optimizations here. You're also seeing [00:26:00] very quickly. I'll show you some of the reports that you can generate from the system. My point here is when you start to do all of these things, The system now has the ability to give you insights that you didn't have and they actually compliment what you would typically get from a retailer. 

[00:26:19] Ram: So in this case, let's say you go back and you want to compare across different retailers, attributed sales, fan what is the paid share of voice? You can pull all of those things in different charts, compare it. You can look at share of voice by different retailers. So if you have a strong share of voice on a given retailer and a weak share of voice, another one, you could selectively choose to push one set of products, one set of SKUs, one set of adhesives on one retailer, another set on another. 

[00:26:48] Ram: But those are the kinds of things that that you can do. As I was mentioning here, how does your ROAS compare to IROI or to your spend how what is the movement in that data? These [00:27:00] are all the things we're able to plot at cross retailer level at the tactical level Simply because we're breaking the data down and using a series of models to try to compute. 

[00:27:09] Ram: What is 

[00:27:09] Tom: So this looks like it's putting a lot of power back into the agency or the brand 

[00:27:14] Ram: Correct. 

[00:27:15] Tom: during a joint business plan. And the question is anybody using this yet? Or, are, is there going to be a sort of a shake up as they start to use these? 

[00:27:24] Ram: See, I appreciate that question. The reason so we have a lot of we have a lot of clients big and small already on neon. We're processing a lot of retail spend already through neon. But the point that I appreciate in your question is With a tool like this, you have the ability to expand the market. 

[00:27:43] Ram: You mentioned JBP. If let us say you have JBP commitments, we also allow you to provide overrides. Let's say your need. So right now you're seeing neon run unconstrained, but let's say you want to go back and say, I have a JBP commitment to spend with a certain partner by a certain amount. You [00:28:00] can easily build overrides into the system so that you can direct neon to not run unbounded. 

[00:28:07] Ram: Basically, then neon will basically allow those overrides and reconfigure its output so that you are applying constraints but letting the growth go someplace else. My point here is We're also allowing agency strategy people to use the system within constraints when those business constraints need to be reflected in the system. 

[00:28:30] Ram: NEON was built flexibly for that. 

[00:28:33] Tom: And what is the vision for this? Cause I think you told us when we first spoke that this is not just for Horizon clients.  

[00:28:40] Ram: Correct. 

[00:28:41] Ram: The system was designed as a neutral third party system to be used by anybody. So we do have clients. Obviously, we're a part of horizon. We have horizon clients using this. We also have clients where other agencies like the whole goals are the agency of record. 

[00:28:59] Ram: But to your [00:29:00] point, Todd, because such a system it doesn't exist today, they're using that. Yeah. We have a third group of clients where the clients who are trying to do this in house and their own team, they're using 

[00:29:11] Todd: Yep. Makes 

[00:29:12] Ram: we genuinely build the system without us having a horse in the race. We want to optimize the entire retail 

[00:29:19] Todd: Oh, I we totally get the reason for the product. Everything we were talking about. So let's start looking ahead and thinking about the future of retail media a little bit, which is, as more dollars and more, brand dollars start showing up in retail media and non-performance or non JPP dollars start showing up. 

[00:29:39] Todd: What do you see, like where does retail media end up? One of the things we've talked about is do you see tighter relationships between retailers and publishers? Is that something, so that those that data can flow to a bigger pool of impressions. What other, ideas do you have about the, where is this all going and. 

[00:29:57] Todd: How does it might look in three or five years as a [00:30:00] sector? 

[00:30:01] Ram: Great question. I do think the first thing that that to me is evident is The flow of budget will continue to happen from digital traditional into retail. It's just becoming too big of a channel, both from branding and conversion perspective, branding and performance perspective. It's becoming too big of a channel to be treated in a silo. 

[00:30:25] Ram: And I can say that safely because Every time that I have is asking me that question. So the first and foremost, I'll continue to I, I believe will continue to see the shift off those dollars. The second thing question that you said, Will there be situations where retailers will start working directly with advertisers? 

[00:30:44] Ram: Very plausible. It is plausible that you have systems that allow you to do that, Yeah. I do think that the bulk of that will still go through agencies and people who are, who have wetted at buying because then you do have a strategy [00:31:00] component that needs to build in. In other words, when I was showing you NEON, I showed you where strategy inputs can constrain the system. 

[00:31:05] Ram: That part, the human input of experts is going to be required. So some combination of. a team mediating that by is still going to happen in my opinion. But I think the biggest part and probably the third implication that you asked for is I do see tools and solutions like this will allow smaller retailers to expand their offering and for advertisers to get much more comfortable spending with them. 

[00:31:33] Ram: We're seeing in data that smaller retailers always usually have a Much faster acceleration to performance, even though their size may be limited, even though they may run out of skill after a certain point in time. These kind of things today are being done using some kind of judgment and feel and solutions like neon make it easier to have that decision. 

[00:31:55] Ram: Yes  

[00:31:59] Todd: I think one of [00:32:00] the follow ups, in thinking about the future retail media is what you were talking about with smaller retailers. And, one of the things like Kevel has been pushing is the rise of call it programmatic retail media, the idea of doing cross retailer buys and what have you. 

[00:32:16] Todd: And, I think what's been missing is a buy side push like neon wants that. And as an agency, you want that. And to me, that looks like one of the interesting opportunities is, does. Is the push meaning retail media is going to look more like the rest of media? It's not going to be as specialized and I think that's a good thing, right? 

[00:32:34] Todd: It'll look and feel more like traditional programmatic 

[00:32:37] Ram: That I agree with you that is bound to happen. In fact, there's a lot of empirical evidence, research reports that you guys put out, a lot of of providers put out eMarketers, that which we talk about some some level of a consolidation on the long tail of the retail o of retail media. 

[00:32:53] Ram: That's bound to happen. But along with that, it also increases the size of the pie for [00:33:00] everybody. 

[00:33:01] Tom: So I think we all agree that it's going there, but I would assume there's got to be huge, headwinds to this our retailers, putting their foot down and saying, no, you can't use that tool or whatever, like what's happening, is there anything that's holding back the adoption of neon,  

[00:33:17] Ram: so far, again, Neon's been in the market for about Neon 2. 0, which is what I was showing you with the whole ensemble of models running behind the scene that's been in market for about 7-8 months. At this point we have not. And we have just the fact that I was sharing with you that we have a Already a good number of clients on this spending sizable amount of dollars through this. 

[00:33:37] Ram: I don't, I'm not seeing anything holding back on that. In fact, if anything, I'm getting more and more questions of can you unlock more potential where it's not a guesswork? And that is where solutions like this allow advertisers to have the comfort to unlock a little bit more potential. So to answer your question, Tom, so far, I have not seen any barriers. 

[00:33:57] Ram: All three parts of the ecosystem I was describing. [00:34:00] Are very interested in something like that, which to me tells me that there was a pent up demand. Not unlike what Todd you observed at the top of the hour. There's a pent up demand for something like this. And for the first time, we're trying to break that in a simplistic manner. 

[00:34:13] Ram: And we're getting a lot of 

[00:34:16] Todd: Yeah it's what as we think about or I think about this space let's maybe talk a little bit about the supply side and say, what retail media providers or platforms do you are your favorites? Do you find are the sort of the leaders on the other side?  

[00:34:34] Todd: I'm sure you get this from your clients like, okay, what's the best reach? Who should I be buying? Who's the best performance? And where do, or who's the one you like to work with the most? Versus, that, that's I think an interesting take on you're this, neutral provide, buyer on the other side, you don't. 

[00:34:48] Todd: You're not linked to any one of them, and so you're really this, and you have a lot of cross comparison experience now, again, through NEON, that others don't. So I'm curious as to how do you perceive the [00:35:00] other side of the table, and who are the ones that you think are doing it really well? 

[00:35:04] Ram: think the first part of the answer is There is no one who I'll say always wins. So for example, even between the big retailers There'll be times when that so when I say big retailers, you're talking about the Kroger, Walmart, Target, Amazon, etc Right the well established ones in the well established one. 

[00:35:23] Ram: It's almost like somebody takes the lead one or the other So there will be times when a retailer will be underrepresented in their ROAS because their contribution is helping organic sales there is clearly a distinction between well matured retailers and the long tail is where we see a lot of variation in the opportunity we've seen. 

[00:35:44] Ram: ROAS on the long tail, like super high looking at that ROAS, that is not sustainable. So it peters out very quickly after a scale. So our input to those retailers will be your way to expanding the market is to not to try to capture the [00:36:00] entire spectrum, but for that product, for that region, for that geography, for that The reason why you have customers coming to you, you have a highest propensity of pushing the incremental ROAS. 

[00:36:12] Ram: You should go heavy on that. So that's been our feedback to that. So my point here is we keep into account the scale and performance combination that gives us a unique way of talking to each of the retailers. 

[00:36:24] Tom: Thank you, Ram. This has been a really great episode for me. It was great to finally see the tool and in in action. Yeah for those who want to find you, I'm assuming linked in or you tell us what's the best way to get your attention and help people get on,  

[00:36:39] Ram: I appreciate that. LinkedIn is the best place. I'll share my LinkedIn contact. You're welcome to drop in there. And also I'm on a lot of these discussion opportunities like where I met you guys. So if there's any question that comes to your mind, I'm more than happy to answer for your viewers. 

[00:36:58] Todd: Are you going to a shop talk?[00:37:00]  

[00:37:00] Ram: of our team members are. I have not decided whether I will be there, but if I am there, I'll certainly be. Yeah, 

[00:37:07] Todd: Awesome. 

[00:37:08] Tom: well, the middleman will be at shop talk in force. So we'll talk more about that in the coming weeks. But thank you, and we will see you soon. 

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