# S2 E18 - Sean Crawford - SMG

S2 E18 - Sean Crawford - SMG 

[00:00:00] Todd: I can imagine going from Uber to the airport, to the airline to WH Smith, to whomever. 

[00:00:08] Todd: And if I could coordinate that entire campaign, it'd be a home run. But today, huh?  

[00:00:13] Tom: Is that, is that what SMG is? I mean, you guys have WH Smith and In-Motion which is two of them, but then you'd have to work with Uber and Kinective like are you working with them? 

[00:00:23] Sean Crawford: well, I wouldn't want to reveal any big secrets or live conversations, but. 

[00:00:27] Tom: is the Middlemen This is where, where companies as big as Kroger break news as far as we understand. 

[00:00:33] Sean Crawford: Oh, well, what I would say is watch this space.  

[00:00:35] Introduction to the Middlemen Podcast 

[00:00:35] ​ 

[00:00:35]  

[00:00:37] Tom: You are listening to the Middlemen podcast with me, Tom Limongello  

[00:00:43] Tom: and my co-host Todd Sawicki Our careers have put us in the middle between retail media and brands, but retail media is a closed loop. So we're here to open up the channel and let you listen in, join our discussions with 

[00:00:56]  

[00:00:56] Tom: Well, welcome to the middlemen.  

[00:00:57] Meet Sean Crawford from SMG 

[00:00:57] Tom: Today's episode's gonna be with Sean Crawford from a company called SMG. Ever heard of a company called SMG Todd? 

[00:01:04] Todd: Uh, well, if it's the SMG, we all know and love, it's a large media agency, um, large HoldCo. But we started talking to Sean, we realized, oh, wait, there's actually a, there's different companies called SMG. 

[00:01:18] Understanding Retail Media in the UK 

[00:01:18] Tom: sean is coming from the UK with, I think something like 17 years of experience in retail media, which most people in the US would be like, what are you talking about? But if we go back to our episode with Clive Hum. And, you know, one of my favorite commercials ever in the retail media space, the 30th anniversary, uh, commercial for Tesco's Klu Co. 

[00:01:40]  

[00:01:59] Tom: [00:02:00] Um, basically that whole, that whole world is what spawned retail media. 

[00:02:06] Todd: Yeah, that's, that's what I think most people don't realize is how mature the retail media market is in the UK and Europe. It's actually more advanced and more mature than the US and I'm not sure most people realize that. So our interest, once we learned what the real SMG was, um, which is a company that helps, uh, retailers, you know, build and manage retail media businesses over there in the UK originally, now in the us it, it's a good, the, the point talking to Sean is just to understand those differences and, and what what is going on in the uk. 

[00:02:35] Todd: And, and it, it should give some indications as to what's gonna happen here in the US as a result and learning from a market.  

[00:02:44] Differences Between UK and US Retail Media 

[00:02:44] Todd: Where it is more mature, again, unusually so, where there's a digital ad business outside the US that's actually more advanced in this case it is. And as a result, there's a lot we can learn. 

[00:02:54] Todd: There's perspectives on, on what they've done differently and there's differences in [00:03:00] how their market emerged. Like there's differences I think in in store and CTV and I think you, you have a good perspective on some of those differences, 

[00:03:06] Tom: Yeah. If you listen to this episode, there's gonna be certain, there's gonna be words in there. Like till instead of register or point of sale, there's gonna be other terms in there . But I think that there's another fundamental thing that you need to understand in listening to this is the evolution of how the uk, because they've had retail media for a long time, um, how the, the stores evolved and. 

[00:03:28] Tom: In the US there, you know, you go into a, a store and all the trade elements that you might see, like a cardboard display in the middle of the aisle, or stickers on the floor, or shelf talkers, wobbler, all those things that we love talking about and making fun of. Um, those, uh, are usually supplied by a vendor. 

[00:03:45] Tom: So you have Neptune, you have.  

[00:03:47] The Role of Retailers in UK Media 

[00:03:47] Tom: Scom, you have a whole bunch of companies out there that are making or printing things in the us um, and is not the retailer, but in the UK the retailer does all of that and they measure all of that. And so because they haven't had, um, these additional vendors when it came to thinking about in-store media or retail media, the UK is not as precious about everything having to be digital to be able to be measured. 

[00:04:12] Tom: , And so since the retailer had more control of what's happening in the store. They think of analog displays as also retail media, that can be measured in ways that help understand the holistic buy, um, for the brand. And so I think that's a really big part that if you didn't know that you would be like, what are you guys talking about in terms of holistic buying? 

[00:04:33] Todd: Sean is, is a knowledgeable. Person you said he is been in this space for a long time, basically his whole career. 

[00:04:39] Todd: Whereas most of the people in the US are moving into retail media from other, either other aspects of the retail media, like the trade side, or they're coming from the, the online ad tech world. And it's good to have someone who's been in the business for a long time. 

[00:04:56] Todd: Has some interesting perspectives and hopefully can, [00:05:00] you know it, help us understand some of those differences. 

[00:05:02] Todd: The in-store piece being more advanced in over there is really fascinating and, and other aspects. The holistic buying being more, more commonplace I think are good lessons for us in here. For those in, in the us. 

[00:05:14] Tom: Yeah. And to think of where they're going in the US 'cause they have a retailer here, we'll, we'll talk about, that's more in the airport travel space.  

[00:05:22] Holistic Buying in Retail Media 

[00:05:22] Tom: And they, because they have that history of thinking about things holistically, they're thinking about the entire journey of a travel consumer with a retail media mindset. 

[00:05:30] Tom: And so fascinating discussion and, uh, hope you guys enjoy. 

[00:05:34] Tom: I'm very happy to welcome Sean Crawford from SMG, which is not Starcom Media Group.  

[00:05:41] Sean Crawford's Background and SMG's Role 

[00:05:45] Tom: We talked about that, if possible, it's gonna be difficult to differentiate probably, but, um, tell us about who you are and where you came from. 

[00:05:50] Sean Crawford: Yeah. Well, great to be here and thank you for having me, uh, on the podcast. As said, I'm Sean. Um, I'm from SMG. SMG is a global leader in [00:06:00] connected commerce. We, , help, retailers either. Startup or accelerate their retail media network operation. And by retailers I also mean commerce businesses as well. 

[00:06:10] Sean Crawford: And we've been doing that for the past, um, 17 years, before retail media was even. A physical term. Um, so quite, , lucky and 40 K Pioneer in that space. And SMG also has a brand side business, , which helps some of the biggest brands, , basically do their media planning, buying operation, delivery and measurement, uh, over in the UK as well. 

[00:06:32] Sean Crawford: And then we a retail piece of technology that is called plan apps that helps, um, retail. Media networks really take the pain points out of, , that delivery service for advertisers, whether that's the media planning, the media management, the inventory management, the media analysis, um, and is used by some of the biggest retailers over in the UK and now in the us. 

[00:06:55] Sean Crawford: My role specifically, uh, I lead North America. 

[00:06:58] Sean Crawford: Um, having been with the business for the past [00:07:00] 14 years, and over that time have worked with 

[00:07:02] Sean Crawford: some of the 

[00:07:03] Sean Crawford: leading retailers. Um, over in the UK for the last 18 months of being, uh, in the us. 

[00:07:10] Todd: A great place to start is. I think there's a, a difference in the readiness, the maturation of the retail media market, especially in the 

[00:07:18] Todd: UK versus us. Now, you've been here for 18 months. What's your perspective on some of those differences between the two? I think that was what really interested us in talking to you is like, oh, we've heard so much about, especially the uk, you know, it's origins with, with Tesco, and so it'd be great to sort of get your take on the differences between the two markets. 

[00:07:34] Evolution of Retail Media in the UK 

[00:07:34] Sean Crawford: Yeah, I mean, I mentioned a minute ago that, we've been doing this for the past 17 years. Retail media isn't a new thing. Right. And I think Tesco is a great example of that. Who started to look at their club card data, their loyalty card, and went, how do we. Make that more useful for us as a business to enhance the shopping experience? 

[00:07:52] Sean Crawford: Well, there's a whole host of first party data there, so let's look at how we can personalize our advertising to those shoppers that we want to [00:08:00] ultimately engage with us, become more loyal to us and buy more products. 

[00:08:03] Sean Crawford: I think Tesco in the UK really, really led that space by, first of all, literally just looking at how to do coupons at till, um, that were personalized based on shopping behavior. 

[00:08:13] Sean Crawford: Then looking at how they could use that information to personalize the in-store experience. 

[00:08:17] In-Store vs Digital Retail Media 

[00:08:17] Sean Crawford: I think that's step number one, where there's a big difference between North America and UK and probably wider Europe, and that's the fact that it started in the store. North America very much started with the onsite and offsite the digitalization of retail media. 

[00:08:32] Sean Crawford: Whereas in the uk, especially retail media is considered any touch point in the store. So I hear a lot of people talking about retail media being only a digital play. I couldn't disagree more with that kind of ethos. Retail media for, for me and, and SMG is really any touch point that a customer can come into contact with, um, in a physical store on a.com, e-commerce platform or offsite that can be related. 

[00:08:56] Sean Crawford: Back to a point of purchase, and that's why all the physical [00:09:00] touchpoints, the analog touchpoints, those kind of cardboard paper touchpoints that exist in a store, Tesco and Sainsbury's, we helped set up. And then also all the other retail networks that followed in the UK used not just the digital touchpoint. 

[00:09:14] Sean Crawford: But all of the physical touchpoint as well. And that leads onto the second point of how retail media is bought differently. In the uk, they really look at it as a total or encompassing buy. So they don't buy it by channel. They don't say, Hey, I wanna do some digital screens, or, Hey, I wanna do audio, or, Hey, I wanna do some in store cardboard. 

[00:09:32] Sean Crawford: They say, I have got X budget and I would like to set a KPI to. Drive penetration category or to, uh, drive a launch of an NPD or to, um, get outta category, um, and bring new shoppers in.  

[00:09:47] Sean Crawford: And to do that, I'm gonna use everything at my disposal that's possible within that retail media network. 

[00:09:53] Sean Crawford: Again, whether it's paper, analog or digital, um, whether it's in store, on site or off site. 

[00:09:58] Sean Crawford: And so they buy it. [00:10:00] As one campaign with the retail media network with one point of entry that makes sure they have a holistic campaign wherever the shopper sees it. And so I think when we're talking about differences, those are really two stark differences versus the North America market where things are very much digital first on site and offsite first. 

[00:10:17] Sean Crawford: And really the in-store conversation has only been happening for the last kind of. Let's say 18 months to two years and still really hasn't taken hold and followed what Europe has done, and then secondly around how it's bought. I think those are the two big, big differences. 

[00:10:31] Tom: So before we get into how it's bought, which I think is. Is gonna be very interesting and probably meat of the conversation. Um, when we talked about this, if possible, I was kind of wondering how did, how was it even the case that you had more in store retail media in Europe and Europe always has, you know, a lot of these innovations in retail before the US does and it sounded like there was a few different aspects. 

[00:10:54] Tom: One about I that I didn't realize that there were just so no vendors, uh, allowed to do the [00:11:00] cardboard displays, right? Like it's all sort of the retailer is that. 

[00:11:03] Sean Crawford: Yeah. 

[00:11:03] Tom: of, yeah. 

[00:11:04] Sean Crawford: Yeah, that's right. So I think if you think about the, the big narrative at Tesco, you've got, Sainsbury's got Asda Morrison's co-op and so on in the grocery space, they completely control that retail media network, operation and they see it as owned inventory It is not third party inventory it's their store, it's their environment to control. 

[00:11:21] Sean Crawford: And so they actually do the end-to-end fulfillment process. Um, within their existing operations in the store. If you think about it, like stores are printing their own materials, communicating with our customers in the store, doing brand or trade campaigns themselves, um, that communicate their retail message. 

[00:11:37] Sean Crawford: So why would you not then just bolt on the retail media network operation into that and create efficiencies of scale? It helps them, of course, with their cost of producing all of this, but ensures that it just seamlessly fits into their operation. So there are not third party vendors going in putting up, you know, stuff at POS. 

[00:11:54] Sean Crawford: They're not erecting, you know, individual cardboard shippers or FSDs or [00:12:00] containers. That is all done by the retailers. And I think, again, this is why it integrates really nicely into the retail media network because at the same time that that. Paper cardboard analogs going up in the store. So is the digital screen that's going live, so is the audio, so is the onsite and the offsite, and that creates a really nice holistic experience because one of the things that I'm really passionate about is we're not selling ad space here. 

[00:12:23] Sean Crawford: What we are trying to do is create better campaigns that marketers engaged with that gets that incremental advertising dollar into the retailer, and ultimately enhances the customer experience if we're just putting different messages on site versus in a store. We're not creating a great customer experience. 

[00:12:40] Sean Crawford: It's not great to see something different on your mobile cell phone versus what you see in a store versus what you see on a website. It should be holistic. Um, and that's when retailers really win at retail media. I think Europe does a good job of that. 

[00:12:51] Tom: So does that mean that the JVPs are just in , harmony in the uk? Is it a super easy thing? Is there no challenge between the, the [00:13:00] merchant and the retail media group? Are they all one, like how is it different? 

[00:13:03] Sean Crawford: Of course. There's challenges. Of course there are.  

[00:13:05] Challenges and Governance in Retail Media 

[00:13:05] Sean Crawford: I mean, know one of the things that SNU does is it goes in and helps retailers look at this governance and helping set up these retail using networks or optimizing where there's those kind of natural pain points that happen in setting up this operation. 

[00:13:16] Sean Crawford: I think, look, retailers are retailers. First and foremost, they're media company. Second, they're trying to become media companies and many of them now in their right do multimillions of dollars in media. And that kind of becoming a, a force to be reckoned with in, in the media opportunities that exist for advertisers to choose from. 

[00:13:34] Sean Crawford: But to do that, they've had to get the governance and the setup right. And the first place to do that is to think about how you work with merchandising. Um, and what I think is really interesting is that merchandising in many of the partners. That we work with absolutely controls the JBP. They are there to set the trade negotiations set, how product is sold, and what is range, and the price is set up. 

[00:13:55] Sean Crawford: But they shouldn't be having a media conversation because they're not the experts in that, that field. [00:14:00] That's where the retail media network should come in. And so it's a real joint, operation between the network and the merchant to make sure that it's a joined up approach, so that if there's a big NPD launch or a big buy in a certain category, or a price promotion, that is then supported by the retail media network as well with a media buy, and it again, becomes much more holistic because whatever's on promotion. 

[00:14:23] Sean Crawford: Is then supported by media. Instead of walking into a store, you spend all this money on media with the network and your competitors on at half 

[00:14:29] Sean Crawford: price and everyone buys the competitor at half price. So for us, it makes much more sense to be 

[00:14:34] Sean Crawford: joined up with merchandising, ensure it holistically 

[00:14:36] Sean Crawford: works across all the touch points, whether that is 

[00:14:39] Sean Crawford: analog or digital. 

[00:14:42] The Buy Side of Retail Media 

[00:14:42] Todd: Uh, as a follow up to that, you know, I think there's, uh, an interesting question that also emerges between the UK and here on the bias. Side, you're talking about holistic buying. That's actually been, I think one of the interesting conversations in North America, which is the buy side, is [00:15:00] as far from holistic as it can get. 

[00:15:02] Todd: You've got shopper marketing and trade dollars. You've got brand dollars. They're two different teams, two different agencies, a group in the agency, a group at the client, and they don't talk together and they don't, they have different budgets and goals. And do you see that differently in the uk where where the dollars are controlled? 

[00:15:19] Todd: It's a more holistic. Buy to begin with, and I think that's one of the tensions here in North America is it's not a holistic budget anywhere or rarely at this point. 

[00:15:28] Sean Crawford: Look, I, I don't think anyone's got a perfect solution to that. I think we've gotta be really transparent about that at this point, because different parties are all trying to do different things. Um, but it has to evolve with, you know, 200, 300 networks that exist now. It has to evolve. For people to be able to buy more efficiently and also then to connect into the traditional, above the line media, um, and wider media strategy that they have. 

[00:15:52] Sean Crawford: I think what I've seen is, is when I was running our kind of agency brand business in, in the uk and we were working with, um, you know, people like General Mills, [00:16:00] um, and they were looking at how do you make this work Ally? A lot of those. Brands are going through the exact same evolution that the RMNs and the agencies are trying to go through, which is to organize their businesses to be able to work in this new world of, of, of advertising. 

[00:16:15] Sean Crawford: And they're all on a journey to do that. Some are already there, some of 'em on process, some of 'em haven't even started. And so they're trying to set themselves up to be able to buy in this new world. I think where, um, the kind of narrative is going is that we just stop thinking about it as a trade dollar, a shopper dollar, a retail media network dollar. 

[00:16:32] Sean Crawford: It is the same. Dollar. The CMO has got one p and l ultimately they're trying to achieve their objective of building their brand. And our founding belief, our founder talks about this, a guy called Matthew Lee, who you may have seen on LinkedIn for outfit of the day. 

[00:16:46] Sean Crawford: He wears jazzy outfits. Um, he talks about the reason he found the business is that he wanted a retail media dollar to be the most. Powerful dollar a brand could invest and to be able to prove that with transparent measurement and so that you would put that [00:17:00] dollar into retail media instead of putting it into a TV campaign or put it into an Outof home campaign or a more more traditional media formats. 

[00:17:09] Sean Crawford: And that's been our founding guiding principle ever since. And I think clients, as we've worked with 'em, have evolved into that sense to help them maximize their budgets. 

[00:17:16] Tom: Well, that brings up another question, which is, you know, you're working with Boots, uh, Asda, Deliveroo, Morrisons. I mean, it's like all the names that I know pretty much in the, in the UK market. Do brands come to you and say, spend my dollar as you see fit across these retailers? Or is it one retailer at a time? 

[00:17:35] Tom: Or how, how does it work from an aggregation standpoint? 

[00:17:38] Sean Crawford: Two, two parts to our business. So the, when we're we're reporting and working with the, with the retailers, you've hired us to basically operate that retail media network. We represent the retailer. Ultimately, we, the best way to compare it to is a round out the target or an 84 51 at Kroger within the end to end service of the kind of ad sales, through to the campaign management, through to [00:18:00] the ad tech. 

[00:18:00] Sean Crawford: Through to the campaign measurement and that's where we represent the retailer. Their name, boots Media Group, Morrison's Media Group, Alice L Asda, the Deborah Smith, north America Media Network. We are the retailer. Um, it's just powered by SMG and our technology and our people. Um, and that's where we will approach the brand and ultimately take their brief on what they want to achieve with that individual retailer question to then achieve their objectives. 

[00:18:25] Sean Crawford: With that retailer and hopefully, um, deliver that return that they're looking for and create that lovely flywheel. If we go to the other side of the coin, which is um, where we're talking with the General Mills example, we represent the brand, and actually in that case it's about what's the brand trying to do? 

[00:18:40] Sean Crawford: What are they wanting to achieve across multiple networks? Now that only exists for us at the moment in the UK as a market, but as an agency, we are there to represent some of the biggest CPGs. So look at the dozen or so leading retail media networks in the UK and work out where their pounds should be best invested. 

[00:18:58] Sean Crawford: So it's not about percentage [00:19:00] of share in the market of Tesco having 30%, and then Sainsbury's, 

[00:19:04] Sean Crawford: Asda, Morrisons, and cohort following. It's about actually saying, where is that pound gonna deliver the best retire 

[00:19:10] Sean Crawford: based on that brand's objectives? And so it's looked at holistically across the market. 

[00:19:14] Todd: One of the things that. We haven't solved the brand buying, but it sounds like it's at least a better conversation or more evolved maybe there in the uk and therefore there's hope in the US for it maybe to get better. And, and I, I think the sell side at least is definitely trying to push that same message, like you're trying to deliver the best campaign possible. 

[00:19:35] Todd: And for that, we need to include as many parties. On, on that side, in that dis discussion, your merchandising example, I think in terms of bad merchandising to lead to a bad campaign is a powerful, um, point of view. Now the other side of that, it, you know, I think , as people have become interested in retail media and growing retail media, especially North America has been how do we get agencies to buy more.[00:20:00]  

[00:20:00] Agency Involvement in Retail Media 

[00:20:00] Todd: And be more involved. And you talked about your role having a brand and agency component, you know, underscore agency. And what has, have the agencies been more involved? Are you seeing cross retailer campaigns in the uk? Obviously it's a hot topic here that the idea is we have programmatic retail media. 

[00:20:16] Todd: How do we. Build tools for cross, uh, retail buying , and how do we maybe make it so that they can use the, the tools they've been using. Like we're talking with Marcus Pratt or Media Smith, who's a, works at a in indie media agency here in the US and he was talking about some of the challenges as, as they try to do more, and especially across retailer. 

[00:20:33] Todd: So what's your perspective on, on what is gonna unlock agencies? What's the experience in the uk maybe different than here and, and where do you think this, do you think we'll be successful selling to agencies here in the US when it comes to retail media? 

[00:20:46] Sean Crawford: Yeah, I think there's a huge opportunity with agency spend. Ultimately, the agencies have got more dollars flowing around and more choice about where they spend those dollars than the retailers are getting from their endemic, immediate kind of fair [00:21:00] share price. That they're looking to optimize. So all the retail media networks are wanting to access those dollars and they're all coming and saying, how do we do that? 

[00:21:07] Sean Crawford: How do we unlock it? And the first thing that has to be addressed is how to make that easier for agencies to, um, ultimately engage and buy from because they can't spread across two, 300 networks just like an individual brand can't spread across two, 300 networks. And I think we're starting to see technology solutions pop up. 

[00:21:24] Sean Crawford: Aggregators that are coming together to help do that. I think we'll see a lot of networks actually starting to collaborate more. This concept of wall gardens, I think over time is going to erode, especially if you are outside of, let's say the top five, you are gonna need to start collaborating and understanding how you could work together in order to a increase your data pool, , and your size of. 

[00:21:46] Sean Crawford: Of opportunity for a brand or advertiser to work with you and B, to ensure that it is seamless, again, across multiple different verticals or markets or regions, geographies. For brands to do those multi buys, I think for the [00:22:00] agencies, um, there is a bit of a race going on, um, a for talent, but b for capability. 

[00:22:05] Sean Crawford: , And if you look at the different big holding groups, they all at varying levels of. Stages of maturity and that that race, some have gone for an acquisition route, um, to acquire that knowledge, that capability, that technology and others are looking to build it themselves. And others are doing a combination of, of the two. 

[00:22:21] Sean Crawford: And I think the reason that there's suddenly this big focus on that from agencies is because of the. Meter rise of retail media over the last kind of five years or so, which is actually seen spend shift outta traditional formats in terms of advertising formats into retail media. And if you know, you are a, a big agency group, you are just seeing that money move and you're wanting to be a part of that conversation. 

[00:22:45] Sean Crawford: So I think that they're moving in that direction to be able to ultimately. Um, grow their, their own business and protect the existing revenue that they have in advertising. Um, and therefore it's really important that networks embrace that and look at how they can work with the big [00:23:00] agency groups to bring in that advertising. 

[00:23:02] Sean Crawford: The thing they talk 

[00:23:02] Standardization and Measurement in Retail Media 

[00:23:02] Sean Crawford: about a lot is that they wanted to be standardized and they wanted to have clear measurement standards and that they want it to stand up to other, more traditional, and I can't believe about, say, programmatic is traditional, but more traditional kind of buying  

[00:23:16] Todd: It is traditional, I think at this point, as traditional as can. Yeah. 

[00:23:19] Sean Crawford: It is, and I, I hear them, but I also challenge it a little bit. If we are trying to shoehorn retail media into what works for programmatic or works for social, we're just trying to fit, a square plug into a round hole that is not going to work. There has to be a acceptance that what is the right standards for, let's say grocery as a vertical. 

[00:23:42] Sean Crawford: It's completely different for a department store vertical, it's completely different for an electrical vertical.  

[00:23:48] Challenges in Standardizing Retail Media 

[00:23:53] Sean Crawford: It's completely different for drug and beauty vertical, they all have varying, , product portfolios at different price points, have different sophistications in terms of digital [00:24:00] capabilities, and it's very. 

[00:24:02] Sean Crawford: I think easy to say and stand up on stage. We're just gonna standardize all this. We're gonna put these measurement principles in place, um, and we'll all be able to buy more, more simply. I, I think that's just really waving a magic wand. It's gonna be a much more complicated than that, and we have to accept that we won't be able to put the principles of what has been done in programmatic and social into retail media. 

[00:24:22] Sean Crawford: Just to open up the ease of media buying. 

[00:24:25] Comparing UK and US Retail Media Strengths 

[00:24:25] Tom: we talked a lot about what's better about the uk? Um, let's, let's be honest about where is the US potentially stronger in the, in the retail media world? 

[00:24:34] Sean Crawford: I mean, don't get me wrong, the UK isn't, is not perfect by any means. Um, there's a lot The UK should be doing a lot better and I think actually that's one of the things that's been brilliant about us expanding into North America, being able to bring that knowledge to our UK partners and they really appreciating that. 

[00:24:49] Sean Crawford: I think that global View is really helping many evolve. Um, I think. You know, we, we've talked a little bit about how North America's been digital first, and that's absolutely its strength. If you look at its [00:25:00] onsite capabilities and offsite integrations, they are far beyond where the UK and actually Europe as well is at. 

[00:25:07] Sean Crawford: We have seen, you know, recently at, at Can and, and, and even last year, the real beginnings of partnerships. Um, and that use of first party data linking into publishing sites, linking into other areas that can create. More holistic, but also more exciting campaigns for marketers and that growth of connected TV in North America as well as ahead of ahead of Europe and how people consume connected TV as ahead of Europe. 

[00:25:34] Sean Crawford: And I think, um, that is where Europe is following North America and is looking to North America for proof points of what they should be doing, where they should be investing, um, where they should be turning 

[00:25:45] Sean Crawford: around their legacy tech stacks. a lot of these retailers in Europe are. Our old, um, they're, they probably won't appreciate me saying, or let's say the, the heritage retailers with heritage websites. 

[00:25:55] Sean Crawford: Um, and therefore there's a lot of investment. 

[00:25:58] Todd: There's a euphemism, heritage [00:26:00] new  

[00:26:00] Tom: like that one. I've never heard that, but I, I like it. 

[00:26:03] Sean Crawford: Maybe that's a  

[00:26:04] Todd: it sounds quaint,  

[00:26:05] Tom: Yeah. 

[00:26:06] Sean Crawford: Yeah. Thank you. Um, well, I think, um, they're definitely looking at how and where to invest. Um, but they can't do everything. No one can do everything. So where you're seeing the US really going, Hey, let's put screens in store. That's already been done in Europe. Done. We've got screens. 

[00:26:22] Sean Crawford: So it's now like, okay. The flip role of that is how do we improve our onsite and offsite experience? 

[00:26:28] Tom: Well, I'm trying to get my daughter to, to watch some tennis, so I was watching Djokovich this morning, you know, uh, playing against Evans and, you know, I'm watching on Hulu. I'm not sure I'm gonna get the types of commercials that would show the retail media tie-ins to the uk, but are you seeing a ton of those types of commercials already? 

[00:26:45] Sean Crawford: Great example. So Wimbledon is shown on linear tv, BB, C, no efforts. There you go. You are getting, you are getting a really integrated Hulu experience based on your viewing [00:27:00] habits. A loaded data touchpoints with retail media probably feed into that as well. That's not the case with one of the biggest sporting events in the uk, um, this year. 

[00:27:08] Sean Crawford: Now, of 

[00:27:08] Tom: One that's full of heritage. I mean, this should be over. Yeah. 

[00:27:12] Sean Crawford: uh, well, the big contrast to this issue is that there's no linesmen and it's all been done electronically and there's no one there in their smart uniforms 

[00:27:19] Tom: We'll, we'll get to ai.  

[00:27:20] Entering the US Market with WH Smith 

[00:27:21] Tom: We'll get to ai, but , I think the bulk of what you wanted to talk about is probably the fact that you're entering the US and you're working with WH Smith, and so you're moving out of the grocery world into the airport with bookstores and in motion electronics, retailers. 

[00:27:35] Tom: Tell us about what that business is like, because I think we're mo, I mean, it's still retail. It's not really commerce media, it's still retail media, but it's a totally different venue. 

[00:27:44] Sean Crawford: Oh my goodness. Absolutely. And I think whilst we're known for grocery in the UK now we work across multiple other verticals and have helped dozens of different commerce and retail partners, um, do that from specialty to department store to drug beauty and, and, and so on.  

[00:27:57] Opportunities in Travel Media 

[00:27:57] Sean Crawford: So the, the move into travel with. 

[00:28:00] Sean Crawford: W Smith actually s some of the things that we're, we're brilliant at. And I'd say that humbly, you know, we look at the store, we're talking about airport stores here. W Smith does not have any eCommerce. Using Smith on any compound from an airport. So what they have is a whole owned and operated property that can enhance customer experience if it's monetized the right way. 

[00:28:22] Sean Crawford: They also want to ultimately encourage all of you to walk through a WH Smith store, um, when you're going through an airport. You are in a closed environment. You can't really go anywhere until you are called to board on your flight and therefore you are looking for something to do or you are ultimately, um, trying to pass the time or you have a distressed moment 'cause you've forgotten something or something's broken. 

[00:28:45] Sean Crawford: And so engaging with you through your cell phone, through your social feeds, through your kind of journey to the, airport as well as when you are in the physical airport, is really important to them so that they. You know that you could possibly then go into that store and engage with that product [00:29:00] mix. 

[00:29:00] Sean Crawford: I think what's brilliant about airports for brands though, is it's an opportunity for trial and it's a different. 

[00:29:07] Tom: tons of new to brand people coming from overseas and things like that. Right. 

[00:29:11] Sean Crawford: You've got a premium audience. First of all, we're all very fortunate in this industry to be traveling quite a lot, but that's not the norm. You are looking at people with high disposable income who are either in vacation mode and are excited about going on vacation. They've saved for it, and they've got some disposable income to treat themselves. 

[00:29:27] Sean Crawford: Or you're looking at business travelers who. Or on work trips that are probably funded for them, and they're looking again to make that as seamless as possible, but also potentially to treat themselves. And then you're looking at the more kind of casual traveler that's trying to get from A to B because it's, it's logistically part of their, their routine. 

[00:29:45] Sean Crawford: But again, someone with the highest appraisal income. So you've got people who are looking and. Interested in trying new product. And for a technology brands who are trying to get you to buy a new set of headphones, for example, that's great. They can get the product into your hands. You can try 'em on the [00:30:00] store, you can listen to them. 

[00:30:01] Sean Crawford: Of course, WH Smith want you to buy 'em there. But for the brand, they're happy for you to buy 'em anywhere. And they ly want you to buy them in a place that's convenient for you. And when we're at the premium end of that market, when we're talking like 800 bucks for a pair of headphones. That trial is really important. 

[00:30:16] Sean Crawford: So an airport experience, I think is something that when you look at what can be done in airports, can be really fun. It can be engaging, it can be customer enhancing, but it can also solve issues that people have in moments of distress, and that's really exciting as a median network opportunity versus others that are much more about immediate consumption. 

[00:30:37] Tom: I mean, the other distress is the retailer not having enough, uh, places for people who are normally e-commerce friendly to try on the products or, or, you know, or try the limited time offers. I was, I was in an airport and, uh, a British brand that my, that my wife loves from, from her childhood that Terry's orange slices yeah. I had never heard of, but they had a new format. It was like little, like m and m [00:31:00] styles and I was like, oh. So they're doing LTOs in the airport. That's, that's interesting. 

[00:31:04] Sean Crawford: you definitely get some really exclusive or limited ranges in airports and it changes by region, and that's something that Douglas Smith are really good at. The reason that. Many people haven't heard of them, it's because they have complete regionalized brands that represent the local market. So, you know, it's district market over in San Francisco, um, but if you are over running through somewhere in Miami or in New York, it's a completely different brand and that's because they're trying to represent the local market, have a local product assortment, and then have all of the kind of national grid brands that you love and want and expect to see supported then by, um, the electronics as well. 

[00:31:39] Sean Crawford: And I think the kind of in motion brand has a lot of, um, kind of resonance with people who are really big fans of technology and look for technology solutions or cannulate products. There's a real nice product mix there. Um, and it means that they can really connect and engage with people and offer brands and advertises something that they can't do elsewhere. 

[00:31:57] Sean Crawford: And so for us it's really exciting disease [00:32:00] where, you know, you launched it in January. We'll be coming up to, um, year two, um, at the start of 2026, and there's a big opportunity for partnership in this as well, and that's where I see, you know, we spoke about it a little bit earlier, but this space going, there's a really interesting play to connect up to the travel mobility operators that are taking you to the airport all the way through them, to the airports themselves, through to then other realtors in those airports. 

[00:32:26] Sean Crawford: Through to the airlines who are carrying you from A to B and then speaking again in the other airport, and then the mobility operator that takes you on the other side. Think about that as a massive data play. They have 

[00:32:37] Sean Crawford: all got information that is interesting, on where you are, where you've been, how often 

[00:32:41] Sean Crawford: you go, um, who you like to fly with, what products you engage with. 

[00:32:46] Sean Crawford: There's a huge buy there that brands would be very interested in. 

[00:32:50] Todd: So what's interesting, you know, you talk about there is an integrated campaign, which 20 years ago you'd run through an ad 

[00:32:56] Todd: network and are we needing to, and [00:33:00] programmatic was 

[00:33:00] Todd: the way to kind of build an ad network. On the fly. And is there a way to maybe combine those two i i to It makes total sense, right? 

[00:33:06] Todd: The idea as a, as a buyer, as a marketer, the ability to program a campaign across those multiple channels or touchpoints makes a ton of sense. And it, it's like on paper. It would, it would, it would totally work. And so I think the question then is how do you get those retailers to work together? I think that's kind of the thing that we're all struggling with a little bit, which is, if you want, if you're the person, the campaign manager, who goes, oh, I can imagine going from Uber to the airport, to the airline to WH Smith, to whomever. 

[00:33:39] Todd: And if I could coordinate that entire campaign, it'd be a home run. But today, huh? about like there's no general contractor that can we do a, you know, or modeling of your house. You have a general contractor who works with all the subcontractors to make that happen, but that there is no general contractor  

[00:33:55] Tom: is that, is that what SMG is? I mean, you guys have WH Smith and [00:34:00] In-Motion which is two of them, but then you'd have to work with Uber and Kinective like are you working with them? 

[00:34:04] Sean Crawford: well, I wouldn't want to reveal any big secrets or live conversations, but. 

[00:34:09] Tom: is the Middlemen This is where, where companies as big as Kroger break news as far as we understand. 

[00:34:14] Sean Crawford: Oh, well, what I would say is watch this space. I think, um, that is definitely where the market is going. It makes sense. As we were saying, we've gotta make this easier for agents to buy behind and for brands to engage with. And that's the way the market needs to go. And I think, um, some of the big operators in this space know that just like some of the small operators know that as well. 

[00:34:35] Sean Crawford: And it's gonna be the first movers in that space that I think will have something really exciting, um, for brands to then engage with. Of course, you're still gonna get operators who want to do this. Themselves. And I think, you know, that's why I talk about the top five networks probably will still continue to operate as they are because they have that scale and that power. 

[00:34:52] Sean Crawford: But if you are outside of that, we've gotta start looking at how you collaborate and partner in every vertical. And travel is a great place to start. 

[00:34:59] Tom: [00:35:00] So I saw. Something in the news recently. I think I was right about this, but if not, we'll cut it. Um, was it WH Smith that partnered up with Amazon to license, uh, the walkout, just walkout technology? Is that right? 

[00:35:13] Sean Crawford: That is a good question. I know that they have used walkout technology in some of their stores. Um, I'm not sure if it's an exclusive with Amazon or whether it's another provider. I'd have to check 

[00:35:24] Tom: From SMGs perspective, what are the tools that you're already using? Is it creative? Workflow, is it computer vision to figure out what people are doing in the stores or consumer journeys? 

[00:35:34] Tom: What?  

[00:35:34] The Role of AI in Retail Media 

[00:35:34] Tom: Where is AI touching your business? 

[00:35:37] Sean Crawford: I mean, it's all over it. And I think, um, that's a good thing for me. AI is not something to be feared. It's something that's gonna enhance ultimately, uh, businesses, but also then customer experiences. Um, at the end of the, of the journey cycle. I think if you look at the really obvious areas that it will affect in, in media, and I I mean this media broadly, not just retail media, creative is a very obvious one where you have to. 

[00:35:59] Sean Crawford: [00:36:00] Previously produced hundreds of assets for a campaign that is now gonna get pretty much automated. Um, and I think if you just compare, um, and for example, Coca-Cola last Christmas had a whole AI generated ad versus their traditional ads. Like just look at, look at the power of that, uh, that is gonna jump on year to unit to year. 

[00:36:17] Sean Crawford: Um, and then how they use that Coca-Cola ad across different formats, across different networks can all be automated through 

[00:36:24] Tom: Well, I mean, I think it's actually much harder to, to automate Coke's normal advertising, especially the brand advertising. On the trade marketing shopper, marketing front, the biggest challenge was getting the brand to understand the, the style guides of the retailer to make sure that those lower funnel or mid funnel ads actually were , not a pain to create week over week. 

[00:36:45] Tom: And so the automation of that I think would make total sense. However, that was like five years ago. That was the challenge. Is that, has that been fixed or is that still too difficult? 

[00:36:54] Sean Crawford: We, we fixed that with some of our partners, so it takes, you know, um, a. [00:37:00] And a lot of work, but once you get it up and running, the saving off the back of it is worth it. So yes, that can absolutely be done and I think more people should be doing it and if they want to talk about that, they know where I am. 

[00:37:12] Sean Crawford: Um, but I think also looking at, um, the wider kind of operational side of retail media. You know, there's a lot of, um, opportunity to smooth that out as well. Um, a great example is in, uh, plan apps and platform. All of our measurement reporting now is done by, um, ai. So it pulls the feed straight from, um, the retailer in terms of their sales data. 

[00:37:33] Sean Crawford: It analyzes that, and then it will compare it against the averages and benchmarks of the category of the store footprint across various other benchmarks that you ask it to. And it'll give you an automated, um, copy output off the back of it so that what used to take weeks now takes minutes if, if that, um, to plug through as long as the sales data is plugged in. 

[00:37:56] Sean Crawford: So things like this are gonna get quicker, which means that brands can learn [00:38:00] quicker and it means they can implement and make that flywheel move faster and shorten the cycle of knowledge 

[00:38:06] Measurement and Attribution in Retail Media 

[00:38:06] Tom: so yeah, we talked, when we first talked, we talked about measurement and the fact that you guys were using a UK company Lumen to measure attention and things like that. Since the UK and Europe is not as digitally focused as the US is in terms of the way they've rolled out. Retail media is like, how is measurement? 

[00:38:23] Tom: Is it, is it all last click? Is it something else? Like what, what's going on with With how retail media is measured? 

[00:38:29] Sean Crawford: That's a huge question. Um, I'll try and, uh, digest it into a few track. 

[00:38:34] Sean Crawford: First of all, I think, um, the Lumen study that we've done with the Cold media network, um, which Dean Harris, that the GM over there is a huge, flag flyer for is well worth a look at. If you haven't looked at it on a copy, let us know. Yeah. Oh no. We'll, we'll, what that study shows is that when you are in a convenience type store, um, which is what the co-op is, it's the number one convenience retail in the uk. 

[00:38:58] Sean Crawford: Um, they're not only driving [00:39:00] sell through in their individual store by doing retail media. So sales at the co-op, they're driving sales at. 

[00:39:05] Sean Crawford: Their competitors because people are going through those stores. They're engaging with me, they're seeing it, and then they go into Tesco, to Sainsbury's, to Asda and buying the product too. So it was a kind of groundbreaking study that showed if you put your advertising, um, budget into co-op, it's gonna drive uplift across multiple retailers, not just co-op itself because of 

[00:39:25] Tom: really is a co-op then. 

[00:39:26] Sean Crawford: Yeah. Yeah. Because of the frequency of visits and of course, um, the kind of eyeballs and, and attributions going with that. So I think that was really interesting. To the broader kind of question about, um, about measurement, I think there's a little bit of an obsession in the industry about one-to-one attribution. 

[00:39:44] Sean Crawford: And I understand why, and I understand that it's come from a digital space where you can literally say that I picked up that Coca-Cola versus you picking up that Coca-Cola. But I think when it comes down to it, and this might be a controversial opinion, what Coca-Cola really care about is [00:40:00] just shifting more units in that individual store, um, or with that individual retailer. 

[00:40:04] Sean Crawford: And if you can prove that and show that media has inferred that in, you know, that ultimate purchase to happen. And that by investing in more media and learning which channel is driving that uplift, um, Coca-Cola will probably be pretty happy with that. Um, and yes, the one-to-one attribution on top is brilliant. 

[00:40:22] Sean Crawford: Yes, linking it to loyalty car data is brilliant, but doesn't have to always have that. And that's where I think Europe is really focused on this test speed control methodology and is something that all of our partners use where you activate media in some stores but you don't in others. You create control groups and you make sure you minimize as many variables as possible. 

[00:40:41] Sean Crawford: So you ensure the same pricing, the same ranging, the same store size. You look at the same regions, the social demographics, and you create these tests to show what happens with different combinations of media. And we put all of that data into plan apps so that it then feeds the benchmarks and it feeds the insights for brands to learn from [00:41:00] so that when they're coming into it, they can really make an educated decision instead of having to go. 

[00:41:06] Sean Crawford: How do I spend my money? I need to drive an uplift. 

[00:41:09] Tom: And I feel like I've heard of that concept before. Is that like what Neil's. Calls a match market or is it something else? Is, it sounds like it may be slightly more sophisticated, but I'm not sure. 

[00:41:19] Sean Crawford: I think different, um, you know, data providers out there, insight companies have different variations of it. The thing we like to see is capital consistency, so. 

[00:41:28] Tom: is it so important for you because Europe is so varied, or is it, is it just the UK. 

[00:41:34] Sean Crawford: The reason that it started, the reason started is brands came to us and said. I'm getting a report from retailer A, a report from retailer B, a report from retail C, and it's not consistent. How can I compare apples with apples? And so what they needed was consistent methodology and a consistent platform to help measure them do that. 

[00:41:51] Sean Crawford: And that's ultimately why planners was born. Um, and now is used by kind of 95% CPGs in the uk. Uh. And that [00:42:00] means that it's a very well-known, well-used platform, but also drives that consistency for marketers and also budget holders to make decisions on where to spend that investment. And I think what I would encourage globally, and I don't just mean North America in the sense that I do mean it globally, is that we should make sure that perfection is not the enemy of good. 

[00:42:20] Sean Crawford: We need to focus on the things that are gonna help drive growth for this industry. And Te v Control will drive growth of in-store media, in markets that haven't focused on it, um, and will ultimately prove to, um, advertisers that they can shift more product, um, if it is set up in the right way. So I think there's an opportunity there and something that lots of people are talking to us. 

[00:42:40] Tom: I, think I asked you all , my tough questions.  

[00:42:41] Sean Crawford: thanks for having me. 

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