# S2 E33 T53 - RSA + Inmar

S2 E33 T53 - RSA + Inmar 

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[00:00:05] Tom: Hey, Todd, we're getting to one of our last episodes of the season. Um, today we're gonna be actually changing the format up a little bit. We've got two guests, one from RSA, which is a company that basically helps lots of independent retailers with their technology and then. Inmar, which is a company I competed with when I was at Quotient, which was mainly a coupon company, uh, that has acquired a bunch of ad tech capabilities over the years. 

[00:00:32] Tom: It was an interesting conversation. What, what were your takeaways? 

[00:00:35] Todd: One of the interesting things is that Inmar is expanding into retail media and that you're seeing these traditional retail partners all expanding into retail media, which is, which I think is a good thing. It's not just an ad tech play. This is a, you know, retail tech play as well and you're seeing it kind of from, come from both [00:01:00] sides. 

[00:01:00] Todd: You're seeing ad tech players get into retail media and you're seeing retail tech people get into retail media and that's kind of the nexus point where they're meeting and Inmar, an example from the retail side of the tech play and. 

[00:01:11] Tom: Yeah, I saw them a lot earlier and I think like the definition of retail media might be a little broader for me. Um. You know, it's not just the PLAs, it's a lot of the offsite capabilities and it's a lot of, um, you know, the incentives themselves, the promotions themselves are the, could those be considered media? 

[00:01:30] Tom: And I think that's been a challenge actually 

[00:01:32] Todd: And for us non-retail people, incentives mean, uh, coupons and discounts and other forms that get offered to consumers. Op consumer offers. It's, I'm always, it, it's mu it always amuses me when we come across these terms, which, you know, we're gonna hear, you're our, our listeners who are on the AdTech side, you're gonna hear this term incentive and they mean coupons. 

[00:01:50] Todd: So put that, 

[00:01:52] Tom: You're also gonna call it content, so. 

[00:01:54] Todd: yes, that's true. I can't believe like how, how you can't just use plain language and you call things incentives and [00:02:00] content when you could just call them coupons, use silly retail people. But the, this point of, of, you know, retail media pulling in other players. Right now, in fairness, Inmar to your point, they've been selling to marketers. 

[00:02:11] Todd: They've been selling to shopper marketing budgets. Um, sometimes in, I guess, coupons fall under shopper marketing, sometimes they fall under other forms, uh, of players. And, and what's the other interesting aspects of the space is, and for those watching, you're gonna get to see my new, uh, 12 week old kitten here in the video who has walked into my, um, home office. 

[00:02:30] Todd: And, 

[00:02:31] Tom: The latest generation of 

[00:02:33] Todd: know that the latest generation of, uh, retail media analysts. Um, and so, but where I was going with, with, in talking about, um, Inmar in terms of retail tech and them showing up is that they've been selling to marketers. Um, and they've been selling different, different functions, and they do talk about like the reality of how they deal with this organizational challenge on the marketer side. 

[00:02:56] Todd: Is it, is it the marketer? Is it the sales team? Which, you know, and, and [00:03:00] I think that's gonna, that that's raring, it's ugly heads still. And obviously Inmar is a point of view and they'll talk to that. They're trying to be more end customer focused and consumer focused. And how they think about this, but the reality of how you sell these things in, is it gonna be from someone who's selling in retail tech or incentives or coupons, whatever the hell we're gonna call 'em, or is it someone from the ad tech side? 

[00:03:21] Todd: And I think how we solve for that's gonna be an interesting challenge and getting different perspectives and seeing people come in from both sides, again, from retail tech and ad tech. And then what's also interesting here in terms of the conversation is that, you know, RSA as an aggregator of retailers. 

[00:03:37] Tom: Right. 

[00:03:37] Todd: Right. In terms of we're seeing in retailers as publishers kind of the same thing, which is just like we saw in in publishing, 2006, 2008, two TH 2010, the rise of ad networks who could aggregate the long tail of publishers to provide scaled advertisers. We're seeing the same thing as re is now getting in to all [00:04:00] layers and sizes of the retail landscape. 

[00:04:03] Todd: And RSA truly being like a, A retail media network, like an ad network kind of play here is I think also interesting and we're really gonna see retail media in all facets of the retail landscape. 

[00:04:19] Tom: Yeah, I mean, to me what's interesting is Fragmentation's always been the challenge in retail media. Um, and we're, you know, we've now over the last couple of episodes started to, to talk to players who are aggregating and, and you know, what I'm interested in seeing is what are the additional capabilities and features that they can do as they go across retailers. 

[00:04:37] Tom: So, you know, we'll see some of the, the inklings of those in this discussion, but we'll continue to have that. That is a thread in, uh, in 2026. So let's get into the discussion.  

[00:04:48] Tom: All right. Welcome to the middleman. We have two guests today. We have Ravi Hanta from RSA, and we have Gary Church from [00:05:00] Inmar. Um, Ravi, you represent, uh, independent retailer. So I wanted to hear about your company first and, and tell me , what you bring to what is I think today a, a new partnership between your two companies. 

[00:05:12] Ravi Achanta: Yep. Thank you Tom, and thank you Todd, uh, for having us here. And my name is Ravi Achanta and I'm representing RSA America. I'm a CEO of the company and we are 12-year-old company and started serving independents. Our slogan is Empowering Every independent. And today we bring a unified solution to the independent, uh, retailers, starting from the loyalty, digital incentives and AI personalization, all the way to the e-commerce. 

[00:05:41] Ravi Achanta: And today we are serving about 1400 locations across the 42 states and annual revenues. We are processing and tracking $25 billion, uh, worth of revenues across the 1400 locations. 

[00:05:55] Garry Church: Yeah. Good morning. Gary Church, SVP of Commercial Strategy at Inmar. Excited to be here. Good to see you [00:06:00] guys. Uh, yeah, we're, we're really excited to partner with Ravi and his team and, and the, uh, the value that we're gonna create, uh, which launched today with the digital incentives that went live. And, uh, if you're not familiar with Inmar, we've got about 5,000 associates across the globe. 

[00:06:14] Garry Church: Uh, we've been in business, we're about 45 years young. We're the largest provider of digital incentives in the grocery space. Uh, and we've, uh, got a business in MarTech as well as healthcare, and we're really in the business of trying to serve customers. So glad to be here with you guys today. 

[00:06:28] Ravi Achanta: And when you say digital incentives, is there a, like, do you mean coupons? Do you mean like, and you know, discounts? Explain what you mean specifically by, you know, the, it's an inside baseball term, but I think it'd be helpful for like guys like me, the non the retailer speak. What does, what does incentives mean in this case? 

[00:06:44] Garry Church: Yeah, we're, we're intentional with the word incentives because we believe of the, uh, in the savings to be agnostic. So whether it's a digital coupon or cashback, or rebate, uh, it's however, uh, the customer likes to experience that savings. Some need to save money now. [00:07:00] Coupons. Some wanna save it and build it up and use it later. 

[00:07:02] Garry Church: Cash back. 

[00:07:03] Tom: At least Todd didn't just call it content, which took me about six months when I first started working at Quotient to understand what anybody was talking about when they said coupons were content. But 

[00:07:12] Ravi Achanta: Oh, that's weird. I've never heard. Heard that before, boy, that's another inside baseball term in terms of calling them, 

[00:07:17] Tom: yep. Yeah. I don't have enough content, guys. I don't have enough content. I'm like, what are you talking about? Yeah. 

[00:07:23] Ravi Achanta: that that is still that that is still, a lot of people talk about digital content, and I'm confused too when I was talking about content means. What is that content? Is it really incentives or coupon or what's the Say? Just a digital content. 

[00:07:36] Tom: Yeah, just go. Just to go one deeper, uh, Gary, , are most of the incentives that you're talking about manufacturer coupons, are you also working with the retailers directly? And this, this sort of ties into how it connects with, with Ravi's services. 

[00:07:51] Garry Church: Yeah, it's a combination. So we'll work with the retailer in the, uh, the format that they prefer, but in this scenario, it is largely [00:08:00] manufacturer coupons, uh, and national content, correct. 

[00:08:03] Tom: What Ravi has explained is that he's basically. Creating this, turnkey service for the smaller retailers. , So what does that include? And you know, I, I'm assuming there's some overlap between what you guys do,  

[00:08:15] Garry Church: Yeah, totally. There is some overlap and that's, that's the, the beauty of this partnership is that we are, we're anchored in the customer and creating as much savings as possible for the customer. So the partnership is. Uh, exclusive provider of digital incentives as well as settlement, which for those not in the industry around that, uh, digital incentives that are not nerd like we are, you gotta have backend reconciliation. 

[00:08:38] Garry Church: That's how our business started. Uh, so that's the, the focus on the partnership and, um. Yeah, we're just really excited to be able to, uh, unlock a space that's challenging to unlock because of the, uh, the technical aspect. So what Ravi's team already has is integration into, uh, the thousands of stores, and we will be providing that digital content to be able to maximize [00:09:00] the savings for them. 

[00:09:01] Ravi Achanta: Yeah, so the Tom, I wanted to add to something to that one is a say it's a common platform we built across all the independent, and then you have all these national quality content coming from in more settlement is also fast tracked. So that the rejections are less and the retailers are managing the cash flow. 

[00:09:22] Ravi Achanta: And that is the biggest, uh, advantage coming from in more today. And then we are evolving into the retail media. And then in addition to that, pla that we all have a very flexible technology where the retailers. Create their own digital incentives, either in the form of rewards, in the form of cross sell, upsell, and all that stuff that is, can be done through the same platform. 

[00:09:50] Ravi Achanta: So either way, that the, the goal is that, you know. To serve the customers and shoppers, uh, with the loyalty and with the personalization. That is the [00:10:00] end goal of all this technology in place today. So retailers have, are very flexible and they have a wholesalers bringing some digital incentives, but predominantly that Inmar and national incentive, a national manufacturer, coupons are driving this whole loyalty. 

[00:10:17] Tom: Okay. That makes sense. I'm happy we're going slowly with this because even though we have two of you, I think it, it, it's difficult to sort of understand what the opportunity is unless you really dig into it. All of these smaller retailers may not have their own website, or if they do, it might be outdated. 

[00:10:33] Tom: You guys are, are helping with that and helping them with, you know, their own promotions, any of the things that they're trying to do to run their trade. But then finally, if they want to get to some scale with incentives, that's where Gary and and Inmar come in. Is that right? 

[00:10:46] Ravi Achanta: Yeah, absolutely. 

[00:10:48] Tom: So you said you're doing retail media. 

[00:10:50] Tom: What does that look like for the independents? 

[00:10:53] Ravi Achanta: Today retail media or the digital incentives, the biggest challenge is the technology, right? In the independent sector, that's [00:11:00] how we have seen last 10 years and a that, you know, retailers have thinks that it's expensive. To have the digital transformation. 

[00:11:09] Ravi Achanta: And then b, we do not have resources or skill to manage that program. And, uh, that those are the gaps. We are completely eliminating with our simplified simple solution. And by bringing that solution together is a really. Enable them. Like an example, you said somebody has a website in different tech stack and somebody has a, don't have a loyalty at all. 

[00:11:34] Ravi Achanta: Someone has a, a mobile app, but it doesn't do anything in terms of loyalty or digital incentives. So what we did was a, we brought everything in a, in a, if you look at it as a RSA, America as a, uh, one large virtual chain, right? And then underneath you have a 1400 locations. And then when anybody, like example, any brand wants to communicate to the [00:12:00] retailers, to the shoppers, you have a one pipe to push your content through, and then you expect the results back through the same pipe. 

[00:12:10] Ravi Achanta: In terms of activations, in terms of sales lift, in terms of clicks, clips, or, you know, impressions and path to, uh, proof of purchase as well. So that's what the uniform technology we built in, and then we made it very cost effective that, you know, we, we go to the every store and to train the store. That's what the heavy lift we are doing. 

[00:12:33] Ravi Achanta: So it's kind of a train the trainer program. We, we train the store managers and then continuously they train their staff. And this is, that is where we see the, uh, what you call engagement, shopper engagement is being. Like a very high without technology. When you go to the, you know, target, Kroger, every cashier, every associate ask you, how do you have our mobile app? 

[00:12:56] Ravi Achanta: It's a similar experience. You get to the independents. Who's using [00:13:00] our technology today? 

[00:13:01] Tom: You're fixing the challenges of fragmentation, but I think any listener here who's used to thinking about Target or Amazon or Walmart, is that. Those are the easy buttons. Um, and those are where there's no fragmentation problem really. 

[00:13:14] Tom: Um, when you get to these smaller retailers, there's a challenge of knowing what retailer you're, you know, you're working with you. You said you worked with, um, a whole bunch of 'em. Um, how many was it again? 

[00:13:24] Ravi Achanta: So 1400 locations, two oh. 

[00:13:26] Tom: I mean, how many companies is that? And then what I really wanna know is who are the customers? 

[00:13:32] Tom: Because I think when we were talking about this previously, um, some of the customers are like distributors, right? 

[00:13:39] Ravi Achanta: So, no, no. So the predominantly, these are all, so we are talking about the customers are, I mean, the retailers are our customers. That's our primary. But we do work 

[00:13:48] Tom: Well, I'm talking about one. Once you get these retailers set up on your system, the customer of retail media, in most cases, my, my experience has been it's, you know, the top CPG brands. [00:14:00] But if they don't have a relationship with these stores, um, when we were talking, there was a discussion of. Hey, you know the, you know, there are potentially distributors coming to you trying to run retail media on behalf of many brands into one of these stores. 

[00:14:17] Ravi Achanta: That is correct. So that, that is, that is the infrastructure built. That is where Inmar is coming in place right now with as Inmar has the retail media and then of course the wholesalers and everybody wants to play, uh, their role. In the ecosystem, but, uh, the, primarily the Gary can chime in on the Inmar side. 

[00:14:39] Ravi Achanta: They are the ones bringing the retail media from the National, national CPGs. 

[00:14:44] Garry Church: Yeah, so I, I think the easiest way for, I mean, when we were talking previously, um, we went deep on some of these topics and. The, the, the easiest way to categorize it is, uh, modular. So the way that we show up is modular. So for a, a [00:15:00] Walmart Connect type entity that is gonna do a lot of things themselves, it's important for us to stay modular, to accelerate their strategic objectives. 

[00:15:06] Garry Church: So there are ways for us to be a monetizable asset or solution that we perform the Demand Gen for. So think Creator. And then there are other retailers that you're referencing that. You know, struggle to get the demand and the interest from the CPGs. And so for those, we can provide the tech and the demand gen so it can be full service. 

[00:15:26] Garry Church: At the end of the day. We also try to be Switzerland and we try to be focused on the outcome, meaning sales. And I know outcomes is a hot topic right now in the industry, but it's one that we've been focused on for decades. And so it's, it's funny for us to see that as like a priority now 'cause it's been a priority for us for, for a number of years and, and really trying to drive sales for the CPG and for the retailer. 

[00:15:47] Todd: For with a, a as a follow up with regards to retail media, the traditionally most, the most common forms sold are sponsored search, PLA, product listing ads, and then [00:16:00] offsite, I'm using the term audience enablement instead, audience extension now. 'cause I think that's a better term. Um, and are the give give a sense of the types of programs that you're selling on retail media? 

[00:16:09] Todd: Is it sponsored search? Um, audience enablement, you know, offsite media give, give a sense on, because when you hear coupons, you're like, oh, are they just selling coupons or digital incentives or offers, or is it also being, um, enabling more traditional forms of what retail media typically is? 

[00:16:25] Garry Church: Yeah. So for us it's really focused on offsite. I mean, it, it depends on the integration with the, with the retailer. Uh, but for us it's, it's largely around offsite and we see the, uh, the offsite tactics as accelerants to awareness around the savings, but they can also be accelerants to awareness around a new item. 

[00:16:44] Garry Church: Or a, a campaign around fifa. I mean, it's really focused on, um, attention and conversion and, and largely offsite, less on the search side for us. 

[00:16:54] Ravi Achanta: Todd, that question is, it always comes from the retailers asking like, you know, Hey, you have a [00:17:00] media, but you know, how do, how. That media can connect with it if there is an incentive. For the consumer aspect, what is the reason this consumer will, will interact with that media? So that's where we have implemented several tools that, you know, if there is a media coming in and then there is a, either it's a in-store incentives coming in or the national incentives coming in, and we are trying to club those together. 

[00:17:25] Ravi Achanta: And then put them in a proper placement of the Shopper's app on shopper's emails and shopper's website. So when you log in, and , you are a frequent buyer of a tide, and then the tide has the media and incentives, and then that will go to the certain, uh, spot on your app. 

[00:17:44] Ravi Achanta: That's where the personalization is kicking in. And we see tremendous improvement on the shopper engagement. 

[00:17:49] Garry Church: Uh, it's always an interesting topic 'cause a lot of the folks that are having the conversation around digital incentives are not typically those that are using digital incentives, but 53% of Americans are [00:18:00] living paycheck to paycheck. 72% of those are less than $50K year. And so what we are focused on is relevancy. 

[00:18:08] Garry Church: It's easy to think of a digital incentives as, or a digital incentive, a coupon or, or a cashback. Offer as a commodity, but it's about relevancy and it's about sourcing the content or the savings that most aligns with. Those that you're serving and their, their joint business plan and their annual plan and their strategy, and that's a delicate needle to thread when it's a national content. 

[00:18:32] Garry Church: It's a national offer, but it's one that we specialize in and we take it seriously. You know, we see the, the ability for us to provide savings as, as. Helping drive consumption, which is what drives our country. And so our ability to drive media to those savings to make it more relevant, so relevant offer, plus relevant meaning, we're letting you know about it in the time of day or the moment that matters most to you, is highly effective to drive more redemption, more [00:19:00] sales. 

[00:19:00] Todd: One of the things that. We've talked about recently is how does that 15%, that's not Walmart and Amazon continue to grow? And if you looked at traditional digital advertising, one of the things that that arose 15, 20 years ago was the rise of ad networks that would pool together large numbers of independent publishers to aggregate a reasonably sized audience to make it more effective, especially for national advertisers. 

[00:19:26] Todd: And that was one of the things until the rise of programmatic really allowed digital. Online advertising to grow. And I think the same challenge exists with retail, which is, you know, Ravi, to your point of how can we combine these retailers together that it is easier to transact If you're a national brand and you do want to target, but you can't work with 1500 retailers to advertise, that's just, physically impossible to do. 

[00:19:54] Todd: And so finding companies like your own that are helping aggregate and pool these retailers together makes a ton of [00:20:00] sense. And so I, this is interesting. You know, we, we just spoke with, with Bridge and Ripple and they're doing a different angle in terms of aggregating some regional grocers. You all are, are aggregating some independents. 

[00:20:12] Todd: And I think this is an interesting moment in time to see something that happened in digital advertising now happen with the rise of retail media. We're seeing the rise of retail media, like truly ad networks or retail media networks that really mean a network. And I think this has been. Uh, an important development and will be important for helping re that 15% grow to 30 or 50%, whatever is more appropriate given their percentage of retail. 

[00:20:39] Todd: To your point, $25 billion is a lot of money, and that's a lot of transactions representing millions of users. And so that it's, it and aggregate is meaningful and, and will be interesting I think to the, the large national advertisers who want to connect with these. Shoppers, wherever they may be, just like they used to connect with them, whatever websites they might be browsing. 

[00:20:59] Todd: So I think [00:21:00] this is an important development. Um, and to your point of like, I don't think PE most people would think of Imar as this company developing a retail media network like this. And I think this is an important, you know, one, two step for you both in terms of Ravi aggregated providing a platform for independents so they can be aggregated, but now Inmar providing that. 

[00:21:18] Todd: Media component to it in addition to incentives, obviously just, you know, that's an, that's its own piece and And I think the other thing that we've talked a lot about too is the importance of loyalty programs for powering retail media. And the combination of what you both are doing, I think is really important for helping enable that so that that does exist. 

[00:21:38] Todd: And so I think that's gonna be an important next step here in terms of how you're also bringing that. So that people can transact and the easier it is transact, the more dollars will flow to that 15%. I think it's another aspect to it. So I think those are some of the things that we've been seeing and talking about. 

[00:21:52] Todd: And you all represent, I think, a part of a really big important trend within retail media. 

[00:21:57] Garry Church: Well said. I mean, you, you nailed it on the network, Todd. [00:22:00] And, and that's why we're so excited to work with Ravi and Rob and the rest of his team is, um, you know, we're all trying to find the most efficient way possible serve customers. That's the same, same reason the others that you referenced are doing that, uh, and trying to, to capitalize on. 

[00:22:14] Garry Church: Uh, the dollars that are flowing and, and really those that provide the, um, best return on those dollars are the ones that are gonna earn the biggest investment. So it's, yes, it's the network and it's also the efficacy of the media as well as the relevancy of the, the offer content. 

[00:22:30] Tom: So I'd like to know. From your efforts in retail media where the money goes tactically into different channels. Um, so it sounds like, Ravi, what you were talking about is a lot of either sponsored search or display placements on the sites that you power. Sounds like that's a, I don't know how much percent of, of the retail that you're doing is that. 

[00:22:52] Tom: Um, so it'd be interesting to hear that. And then also, um, because of Inmar, I know your history required Aki, and so you have rich media [00:23:00] capabilities very similar, um, to Quotient. When, where, you know, I basically came from the rich media part of what was quotient. Um, and so I'd like to know sort of where do you see this going? 

[00:23:10] Tom: And are these, you know, these smaller retailers? Sort of ripe for more innovation on this or less because it's a challenge to, to get to in store or get to CTV and things like that. 

[00:23:23] Ravi Achanta: Okay. I mean, in terms of the retailers, I mean, definitely everyone wants to go with the digital transformation, right? So they want to connect. As much as possible in store, uh, off store and online and everywhere, the consumer aspect. So now the in-store aspect, like looking at the electronic shelf tag and all, and they're keeping this in-store screens. 

[00:23:46] Ravi Achanta: And today a lot of our retailers have the in-store, uh, screens where they're displaying the ads, but they're not trackable. They're non trackable. They're just running the ads. No one knows about it. So with the, uh, what we are trying to do is right [00:24:00] now we connected all their digital channels from the website through the telephone and from in store as well. 

[00:24:07] Ravi Achanta: We have those little kiosk. If somebody don't have phone, smartphone, they can go to that one and they can interact with the digital incentives and media as now the next. 

[00:24:18] Tom: So you're saying that it's kind of like what Sam's Club is doing, but more Actually, I, I dunno if it's exactly that. 'cause it's, you're actually dedicating screens to consumer utility. 

[00:24:27] Ravi Achanta: correct. And because this, as you see some many states, even Illinois recently, a couple of counties in Illinois said, well, it's a digital discrimination, whatever, you know, we're talking about. So we have done this for, uh, uh, actually forward thinking. We were, we've done this, uh, two year, three years ago, actually, first. 

[00:24:45] Ravi Achanta: Tablet solution we brought to the stores where older generation or people do not have a smartphone and all that, they can just simply register at the, and then interact with the digital incentives and go to the checkout and say, Hey, here is my phone number, [00:25:00] and they get everything discounted. So with that. 

[00:25:03] Ravi Achanta: So by connecting all this entire ecosystem, we feel that, you know, in near future, or, or, or, or, or, uh, at least in the next couple of years, this untapped independent industry can come to, uh, one single platform. And where companies like retail media companies, like in more, like other companies, can tap into and serve these shoppers and, uh, uh, and, and utilize the better ROI for the whatever the CPG is spending. 

[00:25:31] Ravi Achanta: I believe that that's a hope. I think, and that's where the direction we are heading to. Um, rather than working within our 20 different, uh, technology stacks, which is going to be cumbersome for the smaller independents. 

[00:25:45] Garry Church: I think the, uh, I think it's an exciting time to be in the space that we're in. And I think those that prioritize the customer are gonna win. Uh, I think those retailers that are thinking about it that way, like Costco that are allowing the funds [00:26:00] from retail media to follow back into merchandising are really interesting. 

[00:26:03] Garry Church: I think one of the reasons that we're, uh, the industry's not accelerating at the rate that it could be is because of the silos that are being navigated that I think we're all well aware of with retail media as a P&L and merchandising still has a P&L And then there's a complexity of in-house marketing and, uh, corporate marketing. So I find that fascinating as a retail nerd. I worked at Lowe's, home improvement merchandising right outta college and have been in retail or CPG ever since. And I think the retailers that get the org chart prioritized and prioritize it around the customer. Same with the CPGs, you know, right now it can be a segmented by what, there's one person that's responsible for digital incentives. 

[00:26:39] Garry Church: There's another group that's responsible for, for media and whether it's national or shopper. And, and is that real? Is, is a question to be, you know, unpacked for. For, uh, days on end, I'm really hungry to understand and work with those that are prioritizing the customer so that we can drive outcomes, so we can drive sales for, uh, and savings for customers. 

[00:26:58] Tom: Yeah. I think one of the [00:27:00] interesting things that a lot of people don't understand when it comes to a lot of this is mainly grocery, right? So what's interesting, I think you were talking about how, um, the alignment of, uh, incentives for people. Where the discounts really do matter, um, are usually aligned to, to drive periods. 

[00:27:18] Tom: So it's, it's holidays like, you know, Thanksgiving and Christmas and, and others where uh, the competitive edge comes from being able to push more cases. A lot of that comes down to, well, you know, incentives have always been sort of on the trade side of things. 

[00:27:32] Tom: 'cause it's helping you figure out how much inventory goes on the shelf and how much is getting pushed through the till. Um, so how do you , bridge that? Because we, we had, we had a challenge with that quotient, which was, oh, you could be amplifying these promotions on media. And some of the people on the brand side were like, whoa, hey, a second. 

[00:27:50] Tom: That's, that's gonna be expensive. I don't, I don't want to amplify savings to that level. So, you know, has, has that evolved at all? 

[00:27:59] Garry Church: I believe it has, [00:28:00] and I believe it is. Uh, it's working well with those that understand the joint business planning process. And if you map it out January to December or whatever the calendar is around those key tentpole events and you've got savings, and then you also have media that. Amplifies it, it's around, uh, protecting margin and it's around, uh, driving ROI. 

[00:28:19] Garry Church: And so I think that, uh, those that zoom out a bit and think bigger as opposed to just let me do a couple coupons a year. And, uh, I'm, I'm really worried about, um, you know, my P&L versus the total outcome for the team that I, I think that there's opportunity there, but there are some that are figuring it out. 

[00:28:38] Todd: How much of, and, and this is. Maybe a a, a good question for, for you Ravi, is if you were an independent retailer, getting access to these national programs was difficult, especially in the incentive side. And, you know, Gary, to your point of, oh, are people concerned about margins, about is it a good program or not? 

[00:28:56] Todd: I gotta think that this is an audience, um, from a store [00:29:00] standpoint that's hungry for these, for this opportunity and wanting access to this. And I would think in a lot of ways, obviously trade is dollars or even limited to, to these merchants. And it's gotta be an interesting perspective from a, uh, A CPG brand standpoint because these retailers are probably really hungry to work with your, the programs that, that you're helping enable Gary. 

[00:29:24] Todd: And so I think, you know, one of the challenges I think with retail media has been how, how hungry are interested in other retailers. And I would think in this case, because they haven't gotten a ton of trade, historically speaking, and even a lot of it, digital incentives is a subset of that. That this is an audience that is ripe for wanting to participate and will be willing to want to participate in innovative programs, especially in I think that's been one of the, the, the challenges is. As we've come up with new ideas, you know, we mentioned Costco, like it's hard for Mark to get programs, innovative programs in place because that's a very conservative culture and rightfully so, not a criticism of of them. It's, it's [00:30:00] who they are as a brand and and so forth. 

[00:30:02] Todd: But I think what's interesting about your retailers is they're probably a lot more flexible because they haven't had access to these programs or dollars before. And so it's an interesting opportunity. If you're on the, the buy side of retail media and you wanna lean into some innovative programs, I think that you, you both represent potentially very willing retailers willing to try new things that other retailers might not be able to or willing to do because of traditions and, and other reasons. 

[00:30:26] Garry Church: Also the benefit of working with, you know, teams like Ravi and his team that work with retailers that aren't jaded. By doing it one way, the the way that's always been done, we wanna work with people that understand that. Uh, we benefit as a, as a team and as an industry from change. And so, , as soon as you say trade, in my mind, I, I go to how are we measuring the impact of trade? 

[00:30:49] Garry Church: Are we doing those investments on an annual basis just because we're, uh, scared of the comp or because we're more focused on how to get. Really creative on an outcome and how to make [00:31:00] sure we're driving an efficacy that, you know is, is high ROI. That's not just about, well let's just do this 'cause we did it in February last year. 

[00:31:07] Garry Church: Let's do something that actually gives the customer a return and as well as our shareholders a return. It just requires some things to be different and not just funnel those investments where they've always been. 

[00:31:16] Ravi Achanta: To add that to Todd. In the past, the retailers are very sensitive to change or adopt new things, but what we have seen is that is. Changing a lot. If you, um, when you get a chance to speak to our retailers, at some point you will see that notice is they're, they're very flexible. That they're, they wanted to, uh, try new things. 

[00:31:40] Ravi Achanta: They wanted to evolve into the modernizing their stores, modernizing their technology. How do I serve my customer? Now I wanted to know who's my loyal shopper. So loyalty has been a, a pretty, uh, what do you call, did not really adapt it at the independents, but if you see the [00:32:00] last, you know, five, 10 years, it's changing quite a bit. 

[00:32:03] Ravi Achanta: That we, we are able to bring 6 million active shoppers into the ecosystem over last, you know, seven years of the true deployment. And, uh, by having this, uh, right integration, simplified technology and where the retailers do not need a, a full team to execute, that's where the biggest challenge is. I have Mississippi, you know, there is a 19th store operators, great operator, but even if you ask like somebody, Hey, you need an AI analyst to uh, uh, look at all this data, it's not possible. 

[00:32:36] Ravi Achanta: It's not possible. That's where we are trying to solve, how do we minimize a, the tech dependency where they can simplify and automate things for them. Then the adoption is going tremendously high and the engagement is going tremendously high. There's, they're, they're shifting from the, some of their independents are getting the trade dollars today, and obviously they are getting the trade [00:33:00] dollars because they're using the first party data. 

[00:33:01] Ravi Achanta: That means they do have a loyalty, pretty high loyalty penetration, and then those trade dollars are also, they're diverting towards the digital incentives rather than saying that, take the trade dollar and change the shelf. Price rather than they're converting those dollars into the serving on a more personalized manner. 

[00:33:20] Tom: I'm trying my best to understand what, what is it that trigger where a retailer, you know, a small retailer, starts to think about doing loyalty? Is it just your technology or is, is there a certain. of sales that they need to do before it makes sense or, you know, 

[00:33:37] Todd: Tom, I think actually it's the opposite. I think it's that you every tell me a retailer that doesn't have loyalty at this point in time. I think that might have been true five or 10 years ago. But today, I gotta believe Ravi, and I'm curious, right? Like to me, I it's stable 

[00:33:51] Tom: I have one and on pod, so that's why I'm asking. But yeah. 

[00:33:55] Ravi Achanta: Well, no, I think, but I think that's an important perspective. Like I think today, if I were to guess as an [00:34:00] outsider to this, like it's table stakes, whereas five or 10 years ago when you were a quotient, sure they wouldn't be, is it, is it worth it? But I don't, I can't 

[00:34:07] Tom: I mean, we, we weren't even equipped to work with anybody who was small. 

[00:34:11] Garry Church: I, I think that, um, it's an interesting question to pose on the loyalty piece because I, I think it is. Um, it's based on those that understand the value of their data and understand the importance of digital engagement. You know, you're talking about, you've got Costco, Walmart, Amazon, Kroger, and then everybody else in some ways, sometimes. 

[00:34:30] Garry Church: And so when, when those that understand the value of, uh, digital engagement and the value of that loyalty data and how that allows 'em to have a more effective digital relationship with the shopper so they can get them to come to their store more often. Good old fashioned trips, frequency and basket size like that, that's still the business that we're all in. 

[00:34:49] Garry Church: It's just easy to forget about it. 'cause we get enamored by all the different tactics within retail media, but it's really about trying to drive more sales at the store. And the loyalty program is a critical component to that.[00:35:00]  

[00:35:01] Ravi Achanta: Todd, you, you, you may be thinking correct outside looking in. A who doesn't have a loyalty today? Everybody must, if you do the poll, everybody say we have a loyalty, but if you really ask the other way around and then say, Hey, are you leveraging your, you know, loyalty data to serve your customers? Then they'll look at say, wait a minute. 

[00:35:18] Ravi Achanta: We, we don't, we don't have a really loyalty in place, but as a check. 

[00:35:24] Tom: or they have, yeah. Are they doing 

[00:35:26] Ravi Achanta: exactly as a check mark. They, they think that they do have a loyalty, but unfortunately, because the systems are so cumbersome to use, I mean, the data is there in the POS for generations and, uh, data has been identified by phone number or a key card or something. 

[00:35:43] Ravi Achanta: And, but they never really see that, you know, uh, who you are versus who's, uh, uh, you know, someone else. So that is the challenge today, Todd. If you ask them, they say yes, but if you ask different question, they say, wait a minute, we don't really have a loyalty. 

[00:35:58] Tom: So you're making it easier for [00:36:00] these independents to use loyalty effectively to start using first party audiences, um, which is a gargantuan feat. But it also, I think from our discussions, you also were talking about additionally leveraging AI to make things easier. 

[00:36:12] Tom: What are the, the low hanging fruit in that area? Is it all sort of in how they buy their products from wholesalers or, or is it, is it actually more related to the media? 

[00:36:23] Ravi Achanta: Actually interesting. That's actually both. They're by going by the category level first of all, hey, every, every store has a categories. Uh, every store has a, interestingly, they know that how much they would like to sell in that particular category, and they know what profitability the category is supposed to make. 

[00:36:43] Ravi Achanta: That's a good starting point. So what we did was with the simple machine learning data, and then are you hitting those numbers, which you desire to hit those numbers, and then we are segmenting the customer's by category level and then who you know, then you promote them in a, in a category [00:37:00] level, promotions. 

[00:37:01] Ravi Achanta: And then naturally after, you know, a few months later, now we are getting into the true AI based personalization. So category may be a dairy as a category probably, but you may get a different incentive than me within the category. So 

[00:37:19] Tom: No, 

[00:37:20] Ravi Achanta: personal, personalized offers and uh, uh, within the category. 

[00:37:26] Tom: we, we never got there quotient. So yeah. Would love to hear that that's happening. Gary, is that true? Real personalized offers. 

[00:37:35] Garry Church: I'll save that for another podcast because we've got a lot of detail to share on that. I mean, that's, we could dedicate a whole time to that. I mean, per personalized offer is how we drive more conversion. Uh, and it's really dependent on the effectiveness of a retailer's item file. It's the. 

[00:37:47] Tom: Well, yeah, I think, I think it's sort of, um, 

[00:37:50] Ravi Achanta: Also, Tom, remember it's 20, it's 2025 going in 2026. It's not 2019 anymore. 

[00:37:56] Tom: yeah. But I, I think that the, those, those challenge, I, I think [00:38:00] personalization could be much more in 25. The question is how far, you know, what is being used to create that personalization? Um, and I think back in the day, personalization was specifically like we were looking at price. Can we personalize the price? 

[00:38:16] Tom: And I think that's a scary proposition. Um, what is personalization mean in the incentive world in 2025? 

[00:38:24] Garry Church: I, I see that as the same vocabulary trap as loyalty. When people like, uh, broad brush personalization, the same way they broad brush loyalty, we end up in a, a tricky spot. Uh, I think f from my perspective and from my perspective, personalization is dependent upon the data that we have access to. And it is then dependent upon the strategy that the retailer is most interested in. 

[00:38:47] Garry Church: Like there's options to do the, um, I mean, there's an endless amount of options for personalization. It's really what their threshold is. And we see ourselves as Switzerland because it's as important to us for us to protect brand [00:39:00] margin and brand investment as it is the retailer outcomes. And so it's really by retailer. 

[00:39:05] Garry Church: And I mean, we see the world the same way Ravi just outlined in terms of, um. You know, category data and digging into with the brand. Hey, so your, your strategy for 2026 is you wanna go from number four in the category to number two. We're gonna build a plan with you for that, and it's gonna be inclusive of media and incentives, and then we're gonna measure it and optimize it along the way. 

[00:39:26] Garry Church: The personalization's gonna be super dependent upon each retailer activation. 

[00:39:31] Ravi Achanta: And for us, uh, a retailer standpoint of view, a since they're built a huge data and then, uh, and then by humanly impossible to someone to go through the manually all this data and how do I serve my customers in personalization, that's where we introduce the ai. It is happening already, Tom, in our, I mean, is whether it's happening at the national level or not, but it is happening at the retailer level today and, uh, more into the, [00:40:00] not necessarily just the category and then what other products you like or possibly like to buy. 

[00:40:06] Ravi Achanta: Probably you forgot about it. So these are all the things we are bringing at the personalized level and many retailers are go taking these baby steps already. And the crawl, walk, model . They're using the ML base very in a controlled fashion of personalization. And then as they learn more and then you know the independents, they want to have flexibility. 

[00:40:29] Ravi Achanta: They want to have authority on what they can't simply just say, click a button on AI takes care of it. So this is, there is a lot of approval process built in. A lot of trust has been built throughout this process where the retailer will be comfortable someday saying that, yes, okay, set these parameters, let's AI take care of it. 

[00:40:48] Ravi Achanta: So they're already in the journey. Mature retailers are already in the journey, even in the independent sector.  

[00:40:53] Tom: Well, you guys have shared your journey with us. Um, you're, you've launched this partnership today, so thank you for choosing the [00:41:00] middlemen to do that. Um, how do we help you get the word out? Are you gonna be at CES and NRF or, you know, what's, what's the, the road show gonna look like? 

[00:41:09] Ravi Achanta: I, I, go ahead, Gary. 

[00:41:10] Garry Church: Yeah, I was gonna say we'll be at the usual spots as, as the rest of our crew. Uh, always is. FMI is the first one. We'll have a small team at CES, we'll be at FMI, uh, and then we'll, we'll be at the usual grocery shops and, and all the rest is the, the roadshow. 

[00:41:26] Tom: I don't think I've done FMI yet. 

[00:41:28] Garry Church: Put it on your Bingo card. That's a good one. 

[00:41:31] Ravi Achanta: Yeah, we haven't, we haven't gone to the FMI, but we, our first one is coming up in the, uh, NGA who start every year, starts with NGA first and go through the rest of the shows. And, uh, the, the most important if they, I mean, I, I really am excited, uh, when you guys said that we can be part of this podcast. I watched many of your others, uh, podcast shows the, I think the education you guys are trying to [00:42:00] bring. 

[00:42:00] Ravi Achanta: And as you are asking, Todd, coming from the Ad network background, you coming from the quotient background, it's a fantastic, the education required in the independent grocery sector. Independents are very much still, A lot of people are trying to sell a lot of things to the independents and then they want to do their business. 

[00:42:19] Ravi Achanta: They, every day they go have to open the store, make sure my products are good, in good position, serve my customers, but if we somehow they simplify, our hope is as an RSA America, at some day, like we are on the path to capture 10% of the market share. In next 18 months, we are on the way and bring 50 billion transactions going through the system. 

[00:42:42] Ravi Achanta: 10 million active shoppers. And by bringing this uniformed network and helping independents. And then how do we partner with the national brands like Inmar, where they are working on our behalf of, on behalf of our customers to bring [00:43:00] better incentives, uh, better, uh, you know, value proposition to the independent. 

[00:43:05] Ravi Achanta: So that way independent don't need to worry about, uh, competing with these big chains. 

[00:43:11] Garry Church: Yeah, from from my perspective. Tom and Todd, thank you for the time. We typically start with gratitude, so we'll finish with gratitude. We're, uh, we're grateful for the opportunity. The, the way you can help is to keep pressing for transformation at a more rapid rate that prioritizes the shopper and not let a ton of, uh, legacy. 

[00:43:30] Garry Church: Uh, entities get in the way of shopper savings and, and shopper experience. It can be less fragmented, it can be, uh, more seamless and ultimately can drive, uh, better return for those that are investing in those tactics. So we see a bright future ahead and we're, we're just getting warmed up, so we're really excited about it. 

[00:43:48] Tom: I'm excited about trying out the, uh, the screens that you have in some of your stores. You're gonna have to let us know where those are, or maybe send us a video. 

[00:43:55] Ravi Achanta: Thanks for having us here and empowering in every independent. That's our [00:44:00] slogan. 

[00:44:00] Ravi Achanta: We'll stick to it and we'll continue to push forward. 

[00:44:03] Tom: All right. Thanks guys. 

[00:44:05] Ravi Achanta: Thank you. Thank you.  

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