# S3 E19 T74 - IAB - Collin Colburn S3 E19 T74 - IAB - Collin Colburn [00:00:00] Retailers vs Giants [00:00:00] [00:00:00] [00:00:05] Tom Limongello: Hey, Todd. Today we're gonna be talking with Collin from the IAB, and, you know, he's somebody I've known for a while. , Generally what I, what I like about talking with Collin is that he's very realistic about where the market is, and he's bringing some new research that's gonna talk about how some of these retailers who are not Amazon can survive. [00:00:25] Tom Limongello: So what were your thoughts? [00:00:28] Todd: Uh, the conversation with Collin is, is interesting in, in two ways, right? It starts with how can retailers and what does the landscape look like when competing with, with Amazon and Walmart for retail media dollars, and what are the lanes and opportunities they can do? And he is, you know, the role of IAB is, is how do I, in that vein, is, is how do I create or how do they create a healthy ecosystem? Which when, you know, the roots of IAB are in working with digital publishers and [00:01:00] helping represent them, and they helped build a very strong digital media ecosystem with thousands of publishers. [00:01:07] Tom Limongello: Right. Yeah, so 300-plus retailers, they should be able to handle this, right? [00:01:11] Todd: They should be able to handle this. And, and there's opportunities, right? There's... Yes, you're gonna have to... [00:01:15] Todd: Th- there's gonna be some, some big platforms and, and one of the lanes. [00:01:19] In-Store Media Edge [00:01:19] Todd: And one of the lanes that, that emerges, interestingly enough, is in-store, right? It's, it is a huge... Yes, Walma- or Amazon has Whole Foods, but it's a small part of their business, and if you're a retailer, that's the main part of your business traditionally, and it really creates some interesting opportunities. [00:01:36] Todd: And the work that IAB is doing there in terms of help standardizing it, the standardization makes it easier to buy, and that's a theme we've been talking about for a long time, a year and a half plus. The easier it is to buy, the easier it is to tr- transact, the more dollars will appear. And that doesn't mean self-serve, right? [00:01:51] Todd: Which is, I think, an interesting... There's, there's some discussion in there with Collin [00:01:54] Tom Limongello: Yeah. [00:01:55] Self-Serve Reality Check [00:01:55] Tom Limongello: We'll get into that 'how I know Collin originally was that, you know, maybe 2021 it was everything's gonna be self-serve. And yes, Amazon got there quicker, but did everybody even get there? [00:02:08] Todd: Yeah, and, and I don't think if-- we saw this play out with digital publishing, smaller publishers didn't really ever figure out self-serve. It was only the biggest platforms. And so I think the opportunity is gonna be more how do you sell to your vendors in more direct sales than, than self-serve for those in-store opportunities, those second and third-tier, um, retailers in terms of size. [00:02:28] Todd: But in-store is something that they can differentiate, and there's a ton of movement. And one of the things I think we're, we're seeing, and this has been a theme for obviously this pod is the interest in in-store, is there's more vendors are active with more stores. The-- We're, we're seeing now hundreds if not thousands of stores with in-store, um, opportunities. [00:02:50] Todd: And I think the, the selling of that will get easier as standards emerge, and that's, that's gonna take a while. But I think there's, there's a ton of work. Collin's leading that working group within [00:03:00] IAB, and, um, it's still early days. [00:03:03] Collaboration and Standards [00:03:03] Todd: And I think what the interesting thing there is, is myself having gone through the standardization of programmatic native advertising and as a small startup DSP that I, that I ran at the time, uh, it's a huge opportunity, I think, for retailers to participate and join and help set those standards so they're in-- like they're, they're compatIABle with them, right? [00:03:25] Todd: And their businesses and not think about it, but it's a great networking opportunity. And so I think this is also a call to retailers to like look to get involved in what IAB's doing around standardization. I think that's an important opportunity for retailers. [00:03:38] Tom Limongello: Yeah, I think most of what you're hearing out in the marketplace, um, as we hear about, you know, Criteo getting scale but maybe getting bought and, you know, other, other opportunities for coalitions in the UK and things like that, all of these things are really just saying that retailers are acting like silos, and something like the IAB is a great place [00:04:00] to collaborate. [00:04:01] Tom Limongello: Um, so yeah, I think, I think the call for that type of, uh, cooperation is, is a good one, and I, I experienced it too in my career when we were trying to figure out how to make mobile ads more, uh, interoperable and easier to buy. And so, yeah, I think that's a, that's a good call-out. We will put, both his research and his work related to in-store measurement, in the show notes, so look out for that and you can follow along with it. [00:04:27] Meet Collin Colburn [00:04:27] Tom Limongello: This is a discussion with Collin Colburn of the IAB, and let's get to it [00:04:32] Tom Limongello: This episode is brought to you by InStore Marketplace. Now, we talk a lot on this show about new tech in retail media, and we admit that we tend to chase it. But we had ad tech veteran Paul Brenner from InStore Marketplace, and Michelle Dooley from Catalyst Media, who's a former Target Roundel exec, on the podcast recently. [00:04:52] Tom Limongello: And they told us about a new piece of research that they're working on that looks at this problem very differently. They said this is not a [00:05:00] measurement problem. It's that no one agrees on what the success of in-store retail media actually looks like. So if you're looking at this purely through a retail media lens, of course you're missing how the rest of your organization and the brand is evaluating it. [00:05:13] Tom Limongello: Merchandising, shopper marketing, agencies, and the brand all use different scorecards to judge the same activity. So the research that they're introducing, brings a concept called shopper purchase rate or SPR, and that's used to connect these different perspectives and scorecards. Really interesting stuff. [00:05:30] Tom Limongello: They've had, a collaboration with the IAB, including Colin Colburn, to think about how to bring this more consistently across the industry. So, if you're working in the space, I think this is definitely worth checking out. The link's in the show notes, or you can go directly to instoremarketplace.com/spr [00:05:48] Tom Limongello: Welcome to the Middlemen Podcast. Today we have Collin Colburn of the IAB, a friend from a long time in the retail media space. Collin, how are you?[00:06:00] [00:06:00] Collin Colburn: Doing great. Thanks for having me, Todd and Tom [00:06:03] Tom Limongello: We sort of knew each other by-- I think it was, like, pre-Zoom. I think we-- there was no video, but we were together on a, a call when you were at Forrester, and I was sort of creating the shadow deck for, for Quotient, uh, when you were trying to rate all of the DSPs. [00:06:19] Tom Limongello: And, you know, what I, what I thought about at the time was that, wow, we're really getting a lot of pressure to create a self-service capability, and I guess this is where retail media is going. This was maybe, like, 2021. And we didn't-- That didn't really happen. Uh, retail media did not evolve like programmatic web, and, we've got a, a different beast, um, but a more interesting one. [00:06:42] Tom Limongello: And you're here to talk about some new research. Uh, do you wanna introduce sort of what you've, what you've been working on? What is it called? [00:06:48] Collin Colburn: Yeah. [00:06:49] New IAB Research Drop [00:06:49] Collin Colburn: So, um, in April we released, um, a piece called Building a More Competitive Commerce Media Ecosystem. Basically, the idea was that, you know, commerce and retail media has grown tremendously since those days that you're talking about, which is like circa twenty nineteen, I think- [00:07:08] Collin Colburn: so. [00:07:09] Collin Colburn: Um, [00:07:10] Collin Colburn: you know, that's seven years ago. [00:07:11] Collin Colburn: It's quite a bit of time, and a lot has happened and a lot of growth has happened. You know, it's a hundred billion dollar global category now. Um, but a-amidst all that growth, um, it's highly concentrated, um, despite the market being so fragmented overall, which is pretty unique. Um, and, you know, sitting at the IAB, one of the things that I think, uh, is, is in our charter is really to, um, help the industry grow long term. [00:07:41] Collin Colburn: And I think the key word there, the key phrase there is long term. Um, and in a market where it's highly concentrated amongst, you know, in the US, call it two major players, and that actually is a phenomenon that's really... it's global too. You know, it changes from market to market, but it's [00:07:57] Collin Colburn: primarily two, two players in most markets.[00:08:00] [00:08:00] Collin Colburn: That doesn't bode well for, uh, for long-term growth. So this research really is about giving the industry permission that, uh, it doesn't have to have every retail media or commerce media network look just [00:08:13] Collin Colburn: like [00:08:14] Collin Colburn: Amazon. [00:08:15] Collin Colburn: Um, that there are viable paths that exist that might serve as, you know, new ideas to bring to your board or executive team or, um, they might be just viable [00:08:28] Collin Colburn: off-ramps off of this super speed highway that so many retail media networks have been on, um, for a long time and not meeting the-- some of the expectations that were laid [00:08:37] Collin Colburn: out [00:08:38] Collin Colburn: seven, six, five years ago. [00:08:40] Tom Limongello: ago. [00:08:40] Commerce Media Defined [00:08:40] Todd: a jumping in point, it's-- I think it's interesting, you know, the use of the term commerce versus retail media. [00:08:47] Todd: And [00:08:48] Todd: commerce media, to me, was almost left for the dead [00:08:51] Todd: and as retail media took off. And so what's your definition? ' [00:08:55] Tom Limongello: About. [00:08:56] Collin Colburn: Yeah. So commerce media we look at as kind of like an [00:09:00] umbrella term [00:09:01] Collin Colburn: - To capture [00:09:02] Collin Colburn: all forms of commerce signals that are used within media and [00:09:08] Collin Colburn: advertising today. [00:09:09] Collin Colburn: More specifically, like, 'cause that's kind of very, [00:09:12] Collin Colburn: like, [00:09:13] Collin Colburn: fluffy, right? [00:09:14] Collin Colburn: But more specifically, I think it's really that, [00:09:16] Collin Colburn: you know, any business that has rich first-party [00:09:21] Collin Colburn: data, [00:09:22] Collin Colburn: it [00:09:22] Collin Colburn: has physical and/or digital [00:09:27] Collin Colburn: locations or assets, websites, apps, stores, what have you, where lots of people go to, [00:09:35] Collin Colburn: and they're providing a customer experience where media or advertising [00:09:41] Collin Colburn: can be helpful or additive to that [00:09:44] Collin Colburn: experience, can be considered a commerce media network or part of the commerce media ecosystem. [00:09:50] Collin Colburn: Now, retail and retail media very much fit [00:09:54] Collin Colburn: within umbrella and are the primary ecosystem within that [00:10:00] overall umbrella today. But you have other categories, you know, emerging that we talk about all the time, like travel, , other forms of hospitality. Um, you have financial services. You even have some b2B or auto, you know, organizations that have launched. [00:10:16] Collin Colburn: You even have real estate organizations that have launched commerce media, uh, networks. [00:10:20] Collin Colburn: I, I, I gave a- an answer on a panel to that question of what is commerce media, how do you define it? And, um, someone in the crowd was like, So any business can be a commerce media network?" And I was like, [00:10:32] Collin Colburn: "Y- y- yeah, I guess under that, you know, definition, you're talking about a lot of companies that would fit underneath that, that definition." [00:10:39] Todd: Yeah. I think it's, I mean, it's a fair point of when-- [00:10:43] Todd: to, to me the definition of commerce media is that you are targeting based upon some transactional data and, right, y- uh, to the point about travel, like [00:10:54] Todd: I think we'd say that United and the back of the screen or Delta's back of the screen, back [00:11:00] of the chair screen is commerce media because it's not cart, it's not their cart, but their retail media might be if I was showing ads in the checkout of the plane ticket. Whereas the back of the seat is probably [00:11:14] Todd: commerce, where [00:11:15] Todd: it's [00:11:16] Todd: powered by com- by transactional data, but it's not in [00:11:19] Todd: a [00:11:19] Todd: transactional And so I think that's kinda maybe where you're, [00:11:22] Todd: you're aligning in terms of digital assets, [00:11:25] Todd: physical [00:11:25] Todd: assets, [00:11:26] Todd: and the line between the two is, [00:11:28] Todd: is I think [00:11:29] Todd: related to that. Like interestingly enough, [00:11:31] Todd: to that point of I think hospitality is [00:11:32] Todd: gonna be or travel's gonna be a little bit of [00:11:34] Todd: both, Marriott at Cannes was talking about targeting [00:11:39] Todd: Food purchases, right? [00:11:40] Tom Limongello: right? In-room [00:11:41] Todd: room [00:11:42] Todd: service food purchases. Like, oh yeah, that's like DoorDash. [00:11:44] Todd: Like, I think DoorDash [00:11:45] Todd: or Instacart are a good example of retail [00:11:47] Todd: media because you're targeting within the cart, and I think that's an example [00:11:50] Todd: where it would [00:11:51] Todd: be considered retail media. [00:11:52] Todd: But the rest of what [00:11:53] Todd: they might do in terms of other-- [00:11:55] Todd: Like, if they had screens in the [00:11:56] Todd: lobby [00:11:57] Todd: targeted [00:11:58] Todd: based upon they knew you were coming in [00:12:00] somehow, [00:12:00] Todd: like they could spiff off your phone or something, [00:12:02] Todd: that to me would be [00:12:03] Todd: commerce [00:12:04] Todd: media. And I [00:12:05] Todd: think of [00:12:05] Todd: that, that might [00:12:06] Todd: be, [00:12:06] Todd: you know, some of the differences, [00:12:08] Todd: b- between the two. [00:12:09] Todd: But I think that's a, it's-- I think this is an interesting one. [00:12:11] Why Commerce Media Matters [00:12:11] Todd: And by the way, I'm glad to see commerce [00:12:13] Todd: media come back [00:12:14] Todd: because I think commerce/retail media is the future of [00:12:17] Todd: web-based [00:12:18] Todd: advertising [00:12:19] Todd: because it does solve the identity problem. It does [00:12:22] Tom Limongello: does attrIABution which [00:12:24] Todd: third-party [00:12:24] Todd: publishers have [00:12:25] Todd: struggled with for twenty-five years, [00:12:26] Todd: really thirty [00:12:27] Todd: years, [00:12:28] Todd: um, since the rise of the original IAB [00:12:30] Todd: specs in 1996. [00:12:32] Todd: So I guess we're at, at the thirty-year anniversary of the digital media Um, Rich [00:12:36] Collin Colburn: Todd, you're doing [00:12:36] Todd: bring back I know, Rich LeFurgy, um, and his efforts back in the day. I was in New York City at the [00:12:42] Todd: time, and it was a fascinating, [00:12:44] Todd: um, time to [00:12:45] Todd: see [00:12:45] Todd: like the rise of all these things anyway, just for a trip down memory lane. [00:12:49] Todd: And, [00:12:50] Todd: uh, for those not aware, Rich LeFurgy [00:12:51] Todd: was one of the [00:12:51] Todd: f- was one of the founding sort of [00:12:53] Todd: board members of the IAB. Um, he was very prominent in the digital publishing ecosystem, worked for a number of large publishers, and is really one of the [00:13:00] godfathers of digital advertising as a result. [00:13:02] Todd: Um, [00:13:03] Todd: you can look [00:13:03] Todd: him up, [00:13:04] Todd: uh, on your own online. [00:13:05] Todd: But a-anyway, so I think this larger point is that the rise of commerce and retail media is a really important [00:13:12] Todd: phase [00:13:13] Todd: of the [00:13:13] Todd: evolution of digital [00:13:14] Todd: advertising. So it's, [00:13:15] Todd: it's, [00:13:16] Todd: it's good to see IAB leaning into it with position like [00:13:19] Todd: yours in terms of talking about it, researching it, [00:13:22] Todd: and even thinking about the rise of, of standards. [00:13:25] Todd: And that might be a good follow-up, right? Research and talking about the growth of it. [00:13:28] Standardization Priorities [00:13:28] Todd: But what's the, the movement around standardization? 'Cause that's been a big topic, right? What are some of the areas that [00:13:33] Todd: that are coming up in retail/commerce media? [00:13:36] Todd: Is it ad formats? Is it attrIABution? [00:13:39] Todd: us a [00:13:39] Todd: sense on where [00:13:40] Todd: that work [00:13:41] Todd: is, [00:13:41] Todd: is, um, [00:13:42] Todd: where it is and where it might [00:13:43] Todd: be going inside [00:13:44] Collin Colburn: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [00:13:45] Collin Colburn: yeah. [00:13:45] In-Store Impressions Three Ps [00:13:45] Collin Colburn: we've both rolled out several different, um, standards guidelines, um, in this space, and we have some more planned. Some of the, some of the pieces we've rolled out just last year was, um, defining what is an impression within the [00:14:00] physical store. You know, this is a really big [00:14:02] Collin Colburn: topic [00:14:02] Todd: Oh, [00:14:03] Todd: totally [00:14:03] Tom Limongello: especially in the US, [00:14:06] Collin Colburn: from a global [00:14:07] Collin Colburn: perspective, is somewhat behind [00:14:09] Collin Colburn: other- Other [00:14:10] Collin Colburn: markets when it comes to [00:14:12] Collin Colburn: advertising, [00:14:13] Collin Colburn: digital advertising in the store. [00:14:15] Collin Colburn: Um, and a big topic there is, well, how are you gonna measure, you know, how many eyeballs, how many people [00:14:20] Collin Colburn: are [00:14:20] Collin Colburn: seeing those ads that [00:14:22] Collin Colburn: are that are in front [00:14:22] Collin Colburn: of the screen? And we put together this framework that's [00:14:25] Collin Colburn: called the three Ps, which is [00:14:27] Collin Colburn: um, presence. So was someone detected in [00:14:32] Collin Colburn: that [00:14:33] Collin Colburn: ability to-- opportunity to see the ad? [00:14:37] Collin Colburn: We have a, we have a lot of guidance around... [00:14:40] Collin Colburn: It's very much built off of a lot of the digital out-of-home standards that we, that we've released over the years. [00:14:46] Todd: Makes sense [00:14:46] Collin Colburn: so basically being able to say, "We can confidently say this number of people were within the area." [00:14:54] Collin Colburn: The second P, the second P is play. Did the [00:14:56] Collin Colburn: ad, [00:14:57] Collin Colburn: did the ad... [00:14:58] Collin Colburn: Was the ad served? What-- Did it play? [00:15:00] Um, being able to report that back to the advertisers. [00:15:03] Collin Colburn: And then the third P is really to... was really meant to [00:15:06] Collin Colburn: keep, [00:15:07] Collin Colburn: um, the retailers honest [00:15:11] Collin Colburn: when it comes to that exposure, that presence detection, and it's pairing, which is basically the ability to both show that the ad played and an exposure or presence was detected within a defined timeframe. [00:15:25] Collin Colburn: Usually, we're looking at five seconds or so. Um, that makes it a little bit harder to achieve, but I think it's a bar that [00:15:34] Collin Colburn: we should be striving [00:15:35] Collin Colburn: towards because if in-store advertising is going to succeed, it's going to be based on the fact that you have shoppers, you have high-intent customers that are right there in front of you. [00:15:47] Collin Colburn: And if we're able to show [00:15:49] Collin Colburn: that those [00:15:50] Collin Colburn: shoppers that are exposed to that ad then went and bought or, you know, bought something that was completely out of their [00:15:57] Collin Colburn: norm based [00:15:58] Collin Colburn: on data that the retailer should [00:16:00] have, [00:16:00] Collin Colburn: um, that's where the true promise and [00:16:02] Collin Colburn: opportunity of [00:16:03] Collin Colburn: in-store is. So those are one of the, one of the standards we just released last year. [00:16:07] Collin Colburn: And then, [00:16:08] Tom Limongello: then, um, [00:16:09] Clean Rooms Use Cases [00:16:09] Collin Colburn: going into next year, um, we actual- well, actually this year we're, we're, we're working on some standard use cases for data clean rooms within retail and commerce media. There's a lot of hype and a lot of, [00:16:20] Collin Colburn: um, [00:16:21] Collin Colburn: just talk around clean room technology over the past couple years, and I think one of the things that's been missing there has been, um, some real [00:16:29] Collin Colburn: practical [00:16:30] Collin Colburn: use cases. [00:16:30] Collin Colburn: When is it right to use a data clean room, and when it-- when is it maybe not right? When can you just get away with what you already have access [00:16:37] Tom Limongello: to? I think on the, on the clean room part of it, what I noticed was that it was really expensive to get to a place where the retailer could offer it in a way that could be used at all. [00:16:49] Tom Limongello: Um, and I think that Amazon has sort of democratized that. Um, and that goes to your point, um, earlier in the conversation of there's this Amazon [00:17:00] and Walmart, uh, you know, ownership of most of their retail media dollars, and it's mainly because there's so much investment required to make this work. Um, does the standardization that you're talking about, do you think about sort of how this is challenging to certain retailers as publishers to be able to be part of this? [00:17:18] Tom Limongello: Like how, how much of the standard is making it so that others can participate? [00:17:22] Collin Colburn: Totally. That is-- it's a hu- [00:17:25] Collin Colburn: It's a huge balancing act, um, of creating standards because you don't-- And my view has been very much, you know, standards should both reflect current state capabilities and what the majority are able to achieve and do today, but also at the same time set a path for what the future should look like. [00:17:49] Collin Colburn: And I think, and I, I, I have a lot of discussions about our three Ps framework for the in-store impression. Um, I think we cracked that balance pretty nicely in a [00:18:00] very delicate, in a very delicate [00:18:02] Collin Colburn: space such as the physical store because so many of the privacy concerns that are obvious, um, in, in, in a, in a physical retail environment. [00:18:09] Privacy and Evolving Standards [00:18:09] Collin Colburn: Um, So [00:18:10] Todd: let's explore that [00:18:11] Todd: cracking, [00:18:11] Todd: like, [00:18:11] Todd: you know, in [00:18:12] Todd: terms of what do you mean? Like, what was [00:18:14] Todd: the, the sort of threading the needle there in [00:18:16] Todd: particular? [00:18:17] Collin Colburn: Yeah, I mean, there are, um, there are numerous technologies out there that you can deploy as a retailer. Um, some of them, uh, you know, retailers are very comfortable with, um, and others they are less comfortable with. And if you go over to Europe, they're even more uncomfortable with certain types of tracking or ex- you know, exposure detecting technologies. [00:18:41] Collin Colburn: Um, and we were pretty specific in saying that, um, we're not endorsing a certain type of technology in this standard. The thing that we are endorsing is that they must be privacy preserving, um, and that it should not be collecting PII, uh, [00:19:00] data. Um, so that, that, that was kinda like that balancing act that we had to get to. [00:19:05] Collin Colburn: The other thing that, that was really, um, that, that's been really difficult, I think, for some retailers in, in, in reviewing the framework is the pairing piece, [00:19:14] Collin Colburn: um, and being ...able to [00:19:17] Collin Colburn: use technology to do that pairing. Um, and many of them are, are basically coming back and saying like, "Look, love the [00:19:24] Collin Colburn: idea. [00:19:25] Collin Colburn: Impractical, impracticality, hugely costly." Like, how can you-- how can, how can we make this work, you know, on both, on both ends?" And, you [00:19:33] Collin Colburn: know, that's one of the fun things about, um, standard setting is, [00:19:37] Collin Colburn: you know, we [00:19:38] Collin Colburn: a- as the IAB are very much looked at as the standard setter, And I think, [00:19:42] Collin Colburn: um, the nice thing about being in this role is hearing the feedback so that... [00:19:46] Collin Colburn: You know, these are not meant to be-- Standards are not meant to be you blast them out, [00:19:50] Collin Colburn: and then they just, they, [00:19:51] Collin Colburn: they they live and [00:19:52] Collin Colburn: die, [00:19:52] Collin Colburn: right? [00:19:53] Collin Colburn: Like they're supposed to be living, breathing, changing, evolving, um, frameworks. And, you know, we're always kind of--[00:20:00] [00:20:00] Collin Colburn: That's why I [00:20:00] Collin Colburn: love talking to our member base because they're always giving me feedback on some of the stuff we're putting out, and it gives me new [00:20:04] Collin Colburn: ideas how we possIABly evolve change. [00:20:08] Todd: And standards change, right? I was a part [00:20:10] Todd: of-- In The company I was at [00:20:11] Todd: I was a part of the native-- programmatic [00:20:12] Todd: native specification work, [00:20:14] Todd: and it went through multiple revisions over a few years. Like, every year [00:20:18] Todd: was [00:20:18] Todd: an update to the [00:20:18] Todd: previous [00:20:19] Todd: one, and it grew and expanded [00:20:21] Todd: to cover [00:20:22] Todd: different use [00:20:22] Todd: cases, [00:20:22] Todd: realize where we were [00:20:23] Todd: wrong, [00:20:24] Todd: make changes. [00:20:25] Privacy Safe Pairing [00:20:25] Todd: So I think that's the other thing as you roll out standards [00:20:28] Todd: is [00:20:28] Todd: that just is where it is [00:20:30] Todd: today, and [00:20:30] Todd: then the standards committees [00:20:32] Todd: meet [00:20:33] Todd: and evolve [00:20:33] Todd: over [00:20:34] Todd: time. [00:20:34] Todd: So I think that's [00:20:35] Todd: the other [00:20:35] Todd: thing. Like a good example, [00:20:36] Todd: I think to your [00:20:36] Todd: point, it's interesting to hear that because I [00:20:38] Todd: think it speaks [00:20:39] Todd: to, we were [00:20:39] Todd: talking with Albertsons and their in-store rollout, and they're planning to not pair with users' devices, [00:20:47] Todd: but put beacons on carts and baskets instead, right? [00:20:50] Todd: Where they might connect-- where they, they might-- the user might [00:20:53] Todd: connect to the [00:20:53] Todd: cart, [00:20:55] Todd: and the cart might [00:20:55] Todd: connect to the [00:20:56] Todd: display, [00:20:57] Todd: but there's a [00:20:58] Todd: kind of a [00:20:58] Todd: Chinese wall from a [00:21:00] privacy standpoint to allow them to do that. I [00:21:01] Todd: think [00:21:01] Todd: that's maybe [00:21:02] Todd: speaks to that standard of [00:21:04] Todd: we still wanna pair with something that indicates presence, but it doesn't have to be the user's phone [00:21:09] Collin Colburn: Correct. [00:21:10] Tom Limongello: Yeah. [00:21:10] Attribution Window Fixes [00:21:10] Tom Limongello: I mean, that was, that was the big problem when we were trying to boil the ocean on this previously. I think there were two really big problems early on, which was, one, we thought the mobile device was gonna be central to this. So it was always companies trying to be like, "Oh, all we gotta do is get an SDK into Walmart's app." [00:21:25] Tom Limongello: It's like, okay, have good luck with that. Um, but then the other one was the digital out-of-home technology was one to many. And it was interesting hearing you say that it had a five-second window, I'm assuming like on either end. Um, and what I've heard is, is that there are also vendors out there who were talking about what's the attribution window of the sale. [00:21:45] Tom Limongello: Um, so not only just the, um, what the- Right ... you know, the, the impression and when that's calculated, but it's also how long do you count all these people that are in the store about whether or not they were influenced for the sale. Um, and so it means, [00:22:00] you know, I think it could be one, one type of store could be much longer than another. [00:22:03] Tom Limongello: Um, but what's interesting to me is this is a whole new way of looking at attribution, whereas, you know, it, it was very loose when it came to online or on mobile because it was like, well, you know, it's, it's okay, the cookie lasts this long. You know, we'll just, we'll just let people have it. But in a one-to-many environment, you do have this problem where you could potentially be counting way, way too many people. [00:22:26] Collin Colburn: And frankly, there has been way, way over counting. Um, and that's why, you know, again, I, I think we, not, not to toot our own horn, but like I, I think we s- we hit the, we hit the, the balancing act here of [00:22:39] Collin Colburn: like, [00:22:40] Collin Colburn: I think we're, we're, we're, we're getting closer to overestimation to [00:22:45] Collin Colburn: a extreme and more, I think, moderate, moderated, um, models that [00:22:52] Collin Colburn: I think advertisers can trust. [00:22:53] Collin Colburn: Because at the end of the day, what I was hearing from the, the buy side agencies and, and advertisers was like, "We don't trust [00:23:00] that data for nothing." Um, so any model, any model that reduces that, that, that lack of, that, that, that, that distrust is, is good to us. [00:23:10] In Store Growth Boom [00:23:10] Todd: That's a, that's a great, uh, comment in terms of-- And Tom, your comment about where it used to be versus [00:23:15] Todd: today, [00:23:16] Todd: and also that a lot of the focus is about in-store because, [00:23:19] Todd: you know, Tom and I have [00:23:19] Todd: been talking about [00:23:20] Todd: for the last [00:23:21] Todd: six to nine months about the [00:23:23] Todd: importance of [00:23:23] Todd: in-store [00:23:24] Todd: and what a [00:23:24] Todd: unique environment it [00:23:25] Todd: is [00:23:26] Todd: for retail [00:23:27] Todd: sl- or even commerce right? [00:23:28] Todd: even in a hospitality [00:23:29] Todd: sort of environment [00:23:30] Todd: of travel or other, [00:23:31] Todd: um, events. [00:23:32] Todd: And [00:23:34] Todd: I fully expect an explosion [00:23:36] Todd: in this space. It just, it's, it's the amou-- The classic is, Richard Leford, you would appreciate this going back [00:23:43] Todd: to pull that [00:23:43] Todd: old, old-school reference back, is early on, digital was not getting its share of dollars compared to share [00:23:49] Todd: of time. [00:23:50] Todd: It was [00:23:50] Todd: lagging, and eventually it [00:23:51] Todd: caught up. And I [00:23:52] Todd: think right now [00:23:53] Todd: the in-person [00:23:54] Todd: environment [00:23:55] Todd: is the same, where there's a lot more in-person [00:23:57] Todd: time and there's not a lot of ads against that time [00:24:00] So it's a [00:24:00] Todd: huge growth [00:24:01] Todd: opportunity, and more it's incredIABly unique retailers or [00:24:04] Todd: commerce media [00:24:05] Todd: providers. [00:24:07] Todd: And so it's, it's interesting to hear, [00:24:08] Todd: like, [00:24:09] Todd: that's a key area of the, the [00:24:10] Todd: standard, standards discussions is in-store. It's-- we s- we see a lot of the vendors really maturing a [00:24:16] Todd: lot. We're [00:24:17] Todd: hearing now [00:24:18] Todd: about thousands of stores getting deployed in the U.S. Obviously, yes, we agree with you. Europe's [00:24:22] Todd: been [00:24:23] Todd: ahead of us. [00:24:23] Todd: Australia's been ahead of us, [00:24:24] Todd: interestingly enough. [00:24:25] Todd: And so we're super excited about where this is all going, and standardization's gonna be a key part of that in terms of, especially on the [00:24:32] Todd: buy ' [00:24:32] Todd: side, cause [00:24:33] Todd: we, we saw a [00:24:33] Todd: panel [00:24:34] Todd: at Cannes [00:24:34] Todd: with, [00:24:35] Todd: with, um, [00:24:36] Todd: Jill from Publicis, Jill Cruz, who is, right, the head of their commerce media practice, buying practice, [00:24:42] Todd: and, you [00:24:43] Todd: know, she was [00:24:43] Todd: talking [00:24:43] Todd: about, [00:24:44] Todd: well, [00:24:46] Todd: your, your, you sell-side folks are reporting X, but we're [00:24:48] Todd: reporting [00:24:49] Todd: Y, and the ROI changes as a result, and we have to [00:24:52] Todd: come to terms on that. [00:24:52] Todd: So I think that's all part of this discussion. But [00:24:55] Todd: fundamentally, [00:24:56] Todd: the uniqueness of that in-store environment is still [00:24:59] Todd: such [00:25:00] a compelling [00:25:00] Todd: story for retailers and commerce [00:25:02] Todd: media folks, [00:25:03] Todd: that [00:25:04] Todd: it's only going to-- more is only gonna [00:25:06] Todd: happen in that [00:25:07] Tom Limongello: that regard. [00:25:09] Collin Colburn: I think so too. [00:25:10] Breaking Retail Silos [00:25:10] Collin Colburn: And I think it, um, the, the needle that needs to be thread for this to really take off [00:25:15] Collin Colburn: is that we need to start to break down some of the operational silos, the organizational silos that exist within retail and commerce media, because the merchant owns [00:25:27] Collin Colburn: the [00:25:27] Collin Colburn: physical store Right. [00:25:28] Collin Colburn: We all know that. [00:25:30] Collin Colburn: And it's the one, it's the one place where media really can't get away without... I'm not saying that like media [00:25:38] Collin Colburn: networks and retailers have tried to get away from, you know, working with their merchants, but like you can't avoid them in, [00:25:44] Collin Colburn: um, [00:25:44] Collin Colburn: In the [00:25:44] Tom Limongello: the in-store. Yeah [00:25:46] Collin Colburn: And I think from a measurement perspective especially, it's gonna be interesting to see how these, call them scorecards, um, that a, a merchant uses, which is very much, you know, product movement and being able to increase sales and all that, [00:26:00] versus a media network's scorecard versus a brand's scorecard. [00:26:06] Collin Colburn: And even within the brand, you know, you have the trade and, um, shopper teams that have a different kind of way of evaluating. You have the media teams. And if we can bring all of these things together and start to evaluate the impact that media has, not just on things like impressions and, you know, the ability to generate, you know, awareness, but the ability to, to move sales, the ability to, you know, increase slotting for a, [00:26:31] Collin Colburn: for a, [00:26:31] Collin Colburn: trade sales [00:26:32] Collin Colburn: team at a brand. [00:26:33] Collin Colburn: If we can, [00:26:34] Collin Colburn: if we can get all those different, um, KPIs aligned, this can be a huge, huge unlock for further, for get- really getting to that second wave of growth. 'Cause we've, we've hit that initial, you know, massive first wave in retail media, and now you look at everyone's numbers, you look at the, the numbers from eMarketer and [00:26:52] Collin Colburn: others, [00:26:53] Collin Colburn: it's starting [00:26:53] Collin Colburn: to, to, to level off as it often naturally does in these t- these kinds of ecosystems. [00:26:59] Collin Colburn: And [00:27:00] it's about correcting and, and, and improving, um, from what you learned in the first phase to get to that second phase of growth, and this is a big, this is a big nut for, to get to that second, that second growth [00:27:09] Collin Colburn: era. [00:27:09] Tom Limongello: era. [00:27:10] Smaller Retailer Playbook [00:27:10] Tom Limongello: Well, I, I think that what's interesting now is, you know, we, we talked earlier about there's a couple of big players. [00:27:16] Tom Limongello: Walmart just acquired Vibe.co, so they're g- going further and further into owning all of the stack and, and, you know, having all the capabilities in-house. But if you're not that size of a retailer, um, we were just talking about the merchant-leds, so you have the Costcos of the world, um, who are still investing a lot, um, but are, are sort of, you know, hedging against the, the, the merchant's role versus, you know, where media comes in. [00:27:38] Tom Limongello: But what... If you're a smaller retailer, you know, in your report you talk about coalitions, shared infrastructure, interoperability. What do you see that's happening there? What are the things that retailers should be thinking about from, from your perspective? I [00:27:53] Collin Colburn: I think one of the things happening behind closed doors is that a lot of retailers are starting to wake up to the fact [00:28:00] that they're not gonna be an Amazon. They're not gonna be a major media business. Um, and starting to... Yeah, yeah, I know. Shocking for many of us, but man, it's taken a little bit of time for [00:28:11] Tom Limongello: for... [00:28:11] Todd: I- it's, you know, when you only have, you're only in, you know, 17 states, you're [00:28:15] Todd: not gonna be [00:28:16] Todd: Amazon. Sorry. [00:28:17] Collin Colburn: Yeah. [00:28:19] Collin Colburn: And I, I, I think finally, you know, the economics are really showing themselves very clearly that, um, that you're just not gonna be able to get to that level of scale, and it's okay. it, it, it's okay. It's not... It doesn't mean that you need to exit, you know, being a [00:28:36] Collin Colburn: media business. It [00:28:38] Collin Colburn: just means that media needs to be orchestrated or, um, uh, valued differently within, [00:28:44] Collin Colburn: within the organization. [00:28:46] Collin Colburn: So, you know, we talked [00:28:47] Collin Colburn: about the merchant-led piece. I also think that, you know, one of the things we, we, we, we talked about that hasn't really been that, as maybe sexy to talk about, um, one of the paths that we talked about was this, like, [00:29:00] extreme optimizing, uh, retail media network. Like, we are just focused on what everyone talked about when retail media first emerged, which is the profitability [00:29:11] Collin Colburn: that comes from [00:29:13] Collin Colburn: And what I mean there is, [00:29:15] Collin Colburn: like, [00:29:15] Collin Colburn: I think it's too m- there's been too many retail media networks, especially the ones that are maybe in that long tail, maybe a little bit more regional [00:29:22] Collin Colburn: in nature, [00:29:23] Collin Colburn: that have just... They- they've tried to do too many things. They've tried to bite off more than they [00:29:27] Collin Colburn: can chew, and if they [00:29:29] Collin Colburn: can somehow bring it back and parse it back and just be like, "You know what? [00:29:34] Collin Colburn: We are only gonna focus on our site. [00:29:36] Collin Colburn: We're only gonna serve three kinds of ad [00:29:38] Collin Colburn: formats. [00:29:39] Collin Colburn: We aren't gonna touch this physical store," against what we just said, because frankly, the physical store is very [00:29:45] Tom Limongello: expensive. [00:29:46] Collin Colburn: Um, and it might not be the right next step for someone who's already on a little bit of uneven, you [00:29:51] Collin Colburn: know, soft footing, [00:29:53] Collin Colburn: if you will. [00:29:55] Collin Colburn: And we're just [00:29:55] Collin Colburn: gonna optimize the hell out of the three formats that [00:29:59] Collin Colburn: we [00:29:59] Collin Colburn: run, [00:30:00] [00:30:00] Collin Colburn: and that'll get us into greater standing maybe with our finance team to get greater investment into things like the physical store maybe in five years. 'Cause I think that's where we're, we're at today, is that because we're having these realizations, I think a lot of these media networks are struggling to be able to get further buy-in for the next thing. [00:30:19] Collin Colburn: 'Cause it's like, [00:30:19] Collin Colburn: well, you didn't, [00:30:20] Collin Colburn: you didn't really make the goals on the first couple things, so why would we invest in this, in this next [00:30:26] Tom Limongello: I think if you look at it from, um, the perspective of a smaller retailer, when they look at the vendors that they can work with, a lot of the ones that are very turnkey haven't really filled out their in-store capability because they're like, "Well, that's not the biggest capability, you know, from a revenue standpoint across the whole thing, so we're not, we're not investing in there yet." [00:30:46] Tom Limongello: And so a lot of-- I think a lot of these retailers have this challenge where it's like, well, I would love to, uh, go in-store, but to your point, it's very complicated, it's very expensive. Um, if I go for a turnkey solution there, does that connect to, you know, who [00:31:00] do I connect to on the off-site side? Um, and that's why we're seeing, you know, uh, a lot of the programmatic players come back into the discussion. [00:31:08] Tom Limongello: So when we were first talking, um, and I remember when we were prepping for this, um, I talked about The Trade Desk as sort of, you know, when I was at Quotient, was kinda like the boogeyman because they were, you know, trying to come in, um, with their big brand relationships and be a part of, you know, be the DSP for the retailer. [00:31:26] Tom Limongello: Um, and the turnkey solutions like Quotient and Epsilon were afraid of losing that, that exclusivity, that capability. Um, but you see that they are now coming in. You've got, um, PacVue Skai have been in there for a long time. Um, that whole ecosystem, that sort of connective tissue for both on-site and off-site, um, seems to be a pretty good option for these smaller retailers. [00:31:50] Tom Limongello: Are they, are they even doing that? I mean, what are you seeing out there? [00:31:54] Shared Infrastructure Shift [00:31:54] Collin Colburn: Uh, there-- I think slowly there is, there is more adoption of this shared infrastructure [00:32:00] approach. Um, and the reason I think it's taken a little bit longer is because of the resistance from many organizations to sort [00:32:09] Collin Colburn: of [00:32:10] Collin Colburn: give up a little bit of control, right? Like let's, let's be honest, retail organizations are very used to being in control, um, and sort of have their hands in every part of their, of their business. [00:32:22] Collin Colburn: And this this more shared [00:32:24] Collin Colburn: ecosystem is, um, is, is, is really the opposite of that in a lot of ways because you are basically buying into the idea that, um, the systems that you put in place are going to open up your inventory next to the inventory of your biggest competitor. [00:32:42] Collin Colburn: Um, [00:32:43] Collin Colburn: so I, I think we're getting there. [00:32:44] Collin Colburn: I think that you're seeing, um... Actually at the same time, one of the interesting things is that [00:32:49] Collin Colburn: because of [00:32:50] Collin Colburn: the [00:32:51] Collin Colburn: technologies that are being used underneath [00:32:54] Collin Colburn: to, um, open up opportunities for some of these long-tail [00:32:59] Collin Colburn: retailers,[00:33:00] [00:33:00] Collin Colburn: it actually allows for some standardization underneath it all. a lot of the, a lot of the, tools you mentioned, um, are able to show that connectivity of signals, um, and some of the interoperability bridging that we just have not been able to do with, um, you know, you go retailer to retailer to retailer. [00:33:19] Collin Colburn: Now that you're able to go to a third-party platform, um, there is some comparability that you were lacking before. So that's kind of a bit of [00:33:28] Tom Limongello: bit of a, [00:33:29] Collin Colburn: of a unintentional benefit of some of the retailers partnering with tools like those [00:33:35] Todd: Well, it's-- [00:33:35] Todd: st- you, you end up standardizing within that platform, right? That's, that's a beginning of standardization in terms [00:33:41] Todd: of what the formats are, [00:33:42] Todd: what the currency [00:33:43] Todd: is, [00:33:45] Todd: and how [00:33:45] Todd: that, [00:33:46] Todd: Is managed. So I think that's an [00:33:48] Todd: interesting, [00:33:49] Todd: uh, [00:33:50] Todd: aspect of working with these third parties. And one of the things that we've been talking about [00:33:54] Todd: is [00:33:55] Todd: The [00:33:55] Todd: easier it is [00:33:56] Todd: to buy, [00:33:57] Todd: the better, right? [00:33:57] Todd: If we're [00:33:58] Todd: gonna grow this [00:33:58] Todd: business. [00:33:59] Collin Colburn: [00:34:00] Yep. [00:34:00] Collin Colburn: I think the agencies are part of this too. You know, they want interoperability maybe even more than, than, than the brands do. Um, and they've, I think, been [00:34:10] Collin Colburn: forcing [00:34:11] Collin Colburn: the hand [00:34:12] Collin Colburn: of some of these retailers to opt into, um, some of the technology that, that exists, uh, to be able to do that in a more, in a, in a more easy way. [00:34:21] Collin Colburn: So I think we're evolving towards this, like we're [00:34:25] Collin Colburn: kind of [00:34:25] Collin Colburn: like a partially interoperable, um, ecosystem at the moment because of some of the shared infrastructure. Um, while retailers are still holding on to some of the differentiation that they feel like [00:34:37] Collin Colburn: creates [00:34:38] Collin Colburn: their their value, their value prop [00:34:39] Tom Limongello: prop [00:34:40] Tom Limongello: Actually, you just brought up something else, which is, are there, like, are there actual IAB initiatives or standards outside of just sort of measurement? Um, because I'm not, I'm not sure if that's gonna be the way that retailers get on board. [00:34:53] Tom Limongello: Um, are there other standards that you're seeing as like the IAB needs to work on this next? So [00:35:00] in-store was one that you've, you've already sort of put something out there. What is the next thing that they are thinking about here? [00:35:06] Collin Colburn: Yeah. Um, when we're thinking about, like, the standards that we wanna put together, especially going into next year, which, you know, it's hard to believe we're- but we are just six months away from that. Um, one of the things on the measurement side, it's less about [00:35:20] Collin Colburn: standardizing, you know, reporting [00:35:22] Collin Colburn: and, um, uh, different metrics. [00:35:25] Collin Colburn: What we wanna do is we wanna create [00:35:27] Collin Colburn: standards for disclosure of methodology [00:35:31] Collin Colburn: of, [00:35:32] Collin Colburn: of- [00:35:32] Collin Colburn: the reporting that, that, you're being given. Because I think what's, what, what's starting to emerge is you have lots of brands that are-- they're doing a BYOM approach, bring your own measurement approach, because they've said, "You know what? [00:35:46] Collin Colburn: Enough [00:35:46] Collin Colburn: of," [00:35:47] Collin Colburn: this, you know, lack of standardization that exists." And frankly, you know, I'll, I'll be the first to say, and it probably goes against what, you know, the IAB typically likes to stand for, but, [00:35:56] Collin Colburn: like [00:35:57] Collin Colburn: standardization of measurement is not coming to [00:36:00] retail media in the way [00:36:01] Collin Colburn: that [00:36:01] Collin Colburn: that we- I mean, yeah, that's sort of been why I've been sort of just letting it, letting the dis-- the chatter just go because I'm like, I, I just... [00:36:10] Tom Limongello: From being that close to retailers when I was working on this, it was like, we don't-- they don't wanna do that. [00:36:15] Collin Colburn: They are, they are literally incentivized to not standardize, right? Um, so plan B, and it's not a bad plan B in my opinion, [00:36:26] Collin Colburn: is [00:36:27] Collin Colburn: let's [00:36:28] Collin Colburn: just [00:36:28] Collin Colburn: allow, let, or let's just try and make the retailers disclose what are the methodologies that they're using for measurement, um, and the ability for brands to more transparently and easily access the data that they can then use in their own measurement methodologies. [00:36:47] Collin Colburn: So things like raw sales data across both omni-channel s-sales data, so across physical store, online, media exposure, um, [00:36:57] Collin Colburn: data. [00:36:57] Collin Colburn: And then if I, if I'm a brand that [00:37:00] really want-- that, you know, I'm managing a huge, um, a huge retail media budget across a wide variety of retailers, then I can just take all that data across my big players, put it into my own measurement technology or methodology that I wanna use, and I can run whatever I want, and it can be customized to the KPIs that I share with [00:37:19] Collin Colburn: my sales team. [00:37:21] Collin Colburn: Um, I don't [00:37:22] Collin Colburn: think that's a bad, a a, a bad [00:37:25] Collin Colburn: plan B, um, because I don't think-- I think we were a little bit too, um... W-we were thinking we were [00:37:32] Collin Colburn: living in a unicorn world if we thought that retailers were gonna standardize [00:37:37] Collin Colburn: the same attribution window, the same ROAS methodology, the same [00:37:41] Collin Colburn: incrementality approach. [00:37:43] Collin Colburn: Uh, it's, not gonna happen [00:37:44] Tom Limongello: Yeah. [00:37:45] AI And Measurement Models [00:37:45] Tom Limongello: It's also interesting because we're living in a different world now. What used to be wildly complex may not be as hard anymore with AI. Like, if you have lots of retailers with different standards, um, maybe you can figure out as a brand how to, how to deal with that in a, in a, in this new world. [00:38:03] Tom Limongello: I just don't know if that's, if that's happening or not. [00:38:06] Collin Colburn: Yeah, I mean, I think that's, that's one of the, I think, beauties potentially of AI from a measurement perspective is being able... A- and again, I think this is why it's important for there to be these transparency and disclosure, um, standards so that when you are training your potential model, um, on the data that is, that, that you're gonna be leveraging, it can start to detect, um, maybe inaccuracies or patterns of the very diverse data that you're gonna be getting from, uh, the different retailers [00:38:40] Get The IAB Research [00:38:40] Tom Limongello: Well, um, what is the way for people to get at your research? I mean, I don't know if this is behind a wall or if, if [00:38:47] Collin Colburn: It's not. Anyone, [00:38:48] Collin Colburn: any-- One of the, one of the great things about the IIAB being the industry sort of convener and trade organization is, um, anyone can create a login on IAB.com. And once you have your login, um, [00:39:00] you have access to the vast majority of, um, research and standards and guidelines that, that we produce. [00:39:06] Collin Colburn: Um, and, uh, you're also able to become, um, a member on, uh, on the site as well, which is, [00:39:11] Collin Colburn: um, [00:39:12] Collin Colburn: I always like to say, uh, if I were, if I were managing, a budget again, like I was at previous organizations that, you know, I was looking to partner with trade orgs like us, it's, uh, it's minimal compared to some of the other, um, investments that, that I used to make. [00:39:26] Collin Colburn: So, uh, it's a-- And it's a great, it's a great place to learn, um, and, and network with, uh, with other like-minded folks in the industry [00:39:34] Tom Limongello: Yeah. [00:39:34] Join Standards Groups [00:39:34] Tom Limongello: Well, [00:39:34] Todd: I will strong- I will strongly endorse the participating in the standards setting groups. Um, having done that, as I said, part of the programmatic native when I was building a, a native DSP back in the day. And for retailers should step in. It's a great way to meet the tech side. It's a great way to meet the, the, the buy side. [00:39:53] Todd: Um, I strongly, to your point, encourage everyone who's in the industry. Like, it's a fascinating process [00:39:59] Todd: to be a part [00:40:00] of, right? To, to, and, and to give your point of view. Like, that's the, that's the great thing, is you're gonna understand the standards better. You're gonna have to be able to have been a participant in it. [00:40:07] Todd: And I strongly-- And it's not, it is some money, but it's not that expensive, to your point. So I strongly encourage our listeners to get involved. Absolutely. It's a great, it was a great experience for us, and we were a startup without a ton of money, but it was incredIABly valuable in terms of helping us build a, a business and also the industry of native and programmatic. [00:40:26] Todd: So it, uh, highly endorsed [00:40:28] Tom Limongello: Yeah. It's the same. Uh, Todd and I have a similar experience. I worked on what was called the MRAID standard in the mobile world, where we were trying to figure out how to make interoperable ads that would expand for iOS and Android. Um, and so that was like pre Tech Lab, so the organization has changed, got bigger, more prestigious, but still the same idea, and we're big fans. [00:40:48] Closing And Next Event [00:40:48] Tom Limongello: So thank you for joining us on the Middlemen Podcast, Collin, and we hope to see you again at the next event. Where are you gonna be next? Where are we gonna see you? [00:40:57] Collin Colburn: I will be at Grocery Next, [00:41:00] um, part of Informa's, um, events out in Chicago in late August talking about standards with, um, a bunch of regional grocers, um, and actually talking a little bit about the research that, uh, that we just talked about, um, today. So you can, you can find me there. And thank you guys very much for having me. [00:41:16] Collin Colburn: I'm a huge fan, um, of the pod, so, uh, appreciate it [00:41:20] Tom Limongello: it. Love hearing that. Okay. Well, have a good one. We'll see you next time. [00:41:24] Collin Colburn: Bye guys [00:41:26] ​